Psionics - What system/approach to use?

[Scurvy_Platypus]

So, as part of ongoing stuff, I find myself looking at psionics. And I'm wondering, what's the system I should go with and/or the approach I should take? On rather large consideration is the OGC aspect.

Part of my problem is that I've never been in a game in the past 10 years that allowed psionics. And the games I've run, I've never had anyone interested in playing one so I haven't been able to get a feel for the rules from either side of the screen.

Of course, online scuttlebutt is the usual range of "psionics suck", "psionics are overpowered", and "psionics are a great alternative system that can just replace the vancian system". Which basically means, the value of them varies depending on whom you're talking to. *sigh*

Rather than trying to deal with the question of "should I allow" psionics, I figure a more useful approach is "which one should I use?" Then I'll decide what to do from there. And like I said, OGC use is important to me; I want to be able to post this online using the OGL and know that I'm 100% legal.

1. I've got the Green Ronin "The Psychic's Handbook". It's 3.0 and skill based. Has some charm to it and I like a number of things about it overall. OGC also doesn't seem to be an issue.

2. There's the WotC psionics as posted on the d20 Hypertext SRD. OGC is obviously taken care of, the main thing I'm concerned about is that WotC really doesn't seem to be as up on the whole "balance" thing as the rest of the d20 community; in other words, WotC might be able to make a system and have it be a functional one, but I don't trust them to have balanced it correctly. The CR system (and Upper_Krust's fix/approach) springs to mind.

3. There's Dreamscarred Press. Lots of positive press about them, but no experience on my part. This is complicated by the 45 different products they seem to have, as well as the fact that there's now a whole new redo of their psionics for Pathfinder.

3a. So going with DSP, I first need to figure out whether to go with the Pathfinder redo or not. Here the OGC becomes a particular concern because a lot of Pathfinder stuff is relying on the Pathfinder license; which to me is basically like d20-branded stuff back in the day that released some stuff under the OGL. It's murkier trying to use stuff like this, expecially since I've found a lot of the OGC declarations to be vague to begin with.

3b. Other than messing with changing stuff from 3.x to Pathfinder, what is the DSP reboot of their psionics bringing to the table? Are they addressing actual problems with their earlier material?

3c. If I choose to go with the earlier 3.x version of DSP, what should I actually be going with? If there were problems with it that they fixed when doing the Pathfinder reboot, have they backported those changes? Are is everyone basically left with the choice of either having to figure it out themselves or jump to a new rulesystem?

4. Alternative approach. I can grab something like the Anime SRD and simply build discrete/stand-alone powers. If you're unfamiliar with it, it's similar to M&M although there are differences ; as an aside, Steve Kenson did _not_ design the Anime SRD/SAS d20 rules, despite what some folks might think. He wrote some background on comic history/time periods.

5. Something else I've missed?

The rule base I'm going to be using is 3.x, so compatibility isn't an especially huge factor. I'll be modifying it to an extent anyway.

 

[Dandu]

I've used 3.5 Psionics from the XPH (Not the Complete Psionic, which is widely regarded as subpar) and it works ok, barring a few unbalanced powers.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'm using the Psychic's Handbook, and I'm pleased with it.

I had to modify it significantly to match up to my 3.5 houserules and my tastes. I think the skills can get overpowered, and the psychic class is underpowered, so I wrote new and much better psychic classes with Pathfinder-level power (no dead levels) and toned down the way the skills scale. Since I have no problem doing this kind of revision, I was satisfied with the book. The skills are very intuitive; seers see, savants move things with their mind, telepaths talk telepathically, etc. Not having SR, caster levels, spell slots, etc. is great, so much simpler. The rules for wild talents are excellent.

I've used the WotC psionics system and found it to be very limiting and way too magic-y.

 

[Bacris]

I've used 3.5 Psionics from the XPH (Not the Complete Psionic, which is widely regarded as subpar) and it works ok, barring a few unbalanced powers.

I'll just repeat Dandu.

Just like there are problematic spells, feats, etc, there are problematic psionic powers. As long as you accept that no system is perfect and you may have to tweak to fit your playstyle, the 3.5 psionics ruleset is pretty great.

 

[irdeggman]

Pretty much the same as Dandu.

I like the XPH version - very easy to follow, a whole lot less complicated than the 3.0 version (which was much more skill, well attribute based for different powers).

I personnally find the Complete Psionics info fine, with a few exceptions - much like any published product has.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

So.... it looks like psionics from the d20 hypertext SRD and I've got no problems. Groovy.

 

[airwalkrr]

I have used the ExPH for 3.5 as both a DM and a player and have to say it is a very elegant approach to the psionics issue. It makes psionics different both tactically and thematically. It offers a different way to play a "caster" type character and presents some very interesting options to characters who want to play a psionic character without choosing a psionic class via the various psionic feats. It's the best approach I have seen to psionics yet. I think some playtesting of the original PsH helped get them pointed in the right direction. Making the feats so colorful and adding augmentation to powers was really what made the system shine IMHO.

 

[Plane Sailing]

So.... it looks like psionics from the d20 hypertext SRD and I've got no problems. Groovy.

I would disagree that you wouldn't have problems. I found the 3.5e psionics to be horribly unbalanced. In a campaign that ran from 1st to 20th the psionic characters (psionicist, and psychic warrior dwarf) completely dominated everything until 18th level when the wizard got shapechange and started to keep up a little.

The ability to switch energy types on the fly turned out to be huge. The ability to pump up the powers was too good. The crystal damage powers which ignored SR? Too good.

The end result of the DM's campaign was an epic adventure to restore the rod of seven parts and use it to seal a chaos rift which would destroy everything - and as a side effect removed all psionic power from that game world, the DM declaring afterwards 'never again'

So, clearly some people have had a lot of fun with 3.5e psionics, but in the hands of experienced players it can wreck games like nothing else.

Personally I think you might have more fun with the Green Ronin version.

Cheers

 

[Dandu]

I would disagree that you wouldn't have problems. I found the 3.5e psionics to be horribly unbalanced. In a campaign that ran from 1st to 20th the psionic characters (psionicist, and psychic warrior dwarf) completely dominated everything until 18th level when the wizard got shapechange and started to keep up a little.

A poorly played wizard is inferior to a well played psion. However, a well played wizard is generally held to be superior to a well played psion.

How well played was the wizard? Did he spend all of his time casting Fireball, or did he prefer Planar Binding and Magic Jar?

The ability to switch energy types on the fly turned out to be huge. The ability to pump up the powers was too good. The crystal damage powers which ignored SR? Too good.

A Sorcerer with the Energy Substitution feat and spells such as Orb of Fire, Acid Breath, and Melf's Unicorn Arrow is in roughly the same situation, and they're far from broken.

Blasting is in general a suboptimal use of resources for casters (there's a reason why so many people ban Evocation at the drop of the hat) so having a capable blaster isn't broken. Unless you're dealing several thousand damage per spell.

Speaking of which, did your group enforce the "THOU SHALT NOT SPEND MORE POWER POINTS ON A POWER THAN THINE MANIFESTER LEVEL" commandment in the XPH? Because not knowing that rule leads to a lot of misconceptions about the power of psionics.

So, clearly some people have had a lot of fun with 3.5e psionics, but in the hands of experienced players it can wreck games like nothing else.

Experienced players like myself and the optimizers of Brilliant Gamologists (many of whom are from the old Gleemax Charop forum) generally agree on two things.
1. Psionics is powerful, but not broken.
2. Arcane magic is more capable of wrecking a game like nothing else.

Not that you can't break the game with psionics, but you can do it much easier as as wizard. There's actually a thread on Gleemax dedicated to debunking the belief that psionics is overpowered entitled "Myth: The XPH Is Overpowered". Quite the interesting read. They even address some of the the things you brought up, such as:

"Myth 6: Energy powers are overpowered
Answer: While there are four versions of every energy power, one for cold, fire, electricity and sonic each, the fact is that no matter which version you use, you are still using an energy type, which many creatures become immune to in later levels. While the Psion does have the versatility of 4 options, fire, cold, electricity, and sonic, the two strongest, fire and cold, are also the two most commonly resisted or immune. Electricity is another that is a common immunity, and sonic is balanced by decreasing the damage per die. The option of Force powers tends to halve the damage output of the Energy powers, and comes in much fewer choices.

Some argue that the fact that Psionic characters can decide on the fly what energy to use is unbalanced, but the problem with this argument is that the Psionic classes suffers from extreme lack of options. They have very few choices for powers. The Psion only stays slightly ahead of the Sorcerer until later levels, when the Sorcerer has more spells known than the Psion has powers known, and the Wilder has even fewer than that. By giving this flexibility, it keeps the Psion from being a "one trick pony" and making their limited options entirely useless in the wrong situation. The wizard can counter this by preparing new spells (given enough time, granted), but the Psion does not have this option."

Now, I can't vouch for Bacris' optimization cred personally, but Khan the Destroyer seems to agree with him. Khan the Destroyer is, incidentally, the guy who created Pun-Pun.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I am currently playing a spion with the dreamscarred press spionics unleashed update. After about eight or nine sessions worth of play (at sixth through eighth levels). it appears that a spion in pathfinder is (still) about equivalent to a wizard or cleric (or possibly to a sorcerer with well chosen spells known).

An amusing illustrative anecdote follows. Two rounds into a confrontation with a pair of aboleths, both the wizard and my spion fall victim to the aboleths' Dominate Monster ability, and both of us are commanded to kill the other guy. Both of us al so fail the secondary save for being commanded to murder our bestest buddies.

There are also a rogue/monk, a warblade, and a cleric in the group, along with an NPC from whom we were borrowing a boat. We were traveling across a lake from having hacked off a secret society of wizards in their island tower.

The wizard has given us both water breathing previously. The wizard also has a false life and mage armor on. My spion has touch sight going because the aboleths keep ducking down below the water line.

The wizard is up directly after the aboleths, and launches a pair of scorching rays at me. Due to a horrible roll, only of of the rays hits, dealing me 14 points of damage.

I am next, and whang a crystal shard at the wizard (also, I call him a bad name). The wizard takes 22 points of damage.

The warblade (who has been so far feeling pretty useless, unable to get close enough to the aboleths to do anything to them) grapples the wizard.

The rogue and cleric concentrate on the aboleths (it is a good thing that someone did).

The aboleths, at this point, decide to just watch, and dive a safe distance under the water to wait us out.

Wizard, being grappled by the warblade, uses dimension door to get away, and thus moves out of sight and out of the range of my touch sight (he went in the water somewhere, but I was not perceptive enough to divine which direction he went).

Not knowing where my target went, I chose to do nothing.

Warblade, rogue, and cleric do not notice that I am drooling in the corner, spend the round looking (in vain) for the aboleths (and/or the wizard).

Aboleths continue to wait in hiding and make fun of us.

Wizard fireballs everyone on the boat. he is a jerk. Everyone takes either 15 or 31 points of damage.

I use slip the bonds (this is the renamed freedom of movement for spions) and jump in the water, moving in the direction that the fireball came from.

Warblade, Rogue, and Cleric finally realize that I am also dominated and start moving the boat in the direction that I moved off to, still keeping an eye out for the aboleths.

Aboleths maintain a holding pattern.

Wizard no longer knows where I've gone, swims towards the boat. He comes back within range of my touch sight.

I use dispel spionics on him. It fails to get the dominate monster but does end his [/i]water breathing[/i] which is what my character was hoping for. (technically, I could have specified the water breathing in the first place, but I was sort of hoping to have the wizard free of compulsion. That did not really work out). Like the magical version, dispel spionics ends only a single effect.

Warblade, Rogue, and Cleric row the boat, looking for the aboleths.

One aboleth pops up to take a look at the folks on the boat, and eats a shuriken from the rogue from his troubles. The other one remains out of sight (though within the range of my touch sight, a fat lot of good that does me).

Wizard swims to the surface, having now no air to breathe.

I use telekinetic maneuver to grapple the wizard, to pull him back under the water.

Warblade, Cleric, and Rogue move the boat some more.

Aboleths wait and mock.

Wizard hits himself with a dispel magic, hoping to get out of the telekinetic maneuver. He rolls a 20 and removes the dominate monster on himself, but is still being dragged underwater.

I move out of the way of the boat (which is about to run me over) and continue to use telekinetic maneuver to hold on to the wizard.

Warblade and rogue continue to row. Cleric finally spots me and can move close enough to get me in the radius of a magic circle versus evil which grants me another save to suppress the mind control effect gaffling me. I make this save, so am temporarily safe.

Aboleths decide to give us up for a bad job, and exit stage left. There is no chance that any of us could catch them in the water.

Wizard has to wait for me to let go of him to get out of the water.

I use correspond to ask one of the aboleths if they know where the rest of the secret society of wizards went. They are not helpful.

I have used up about 60 power points in this one encounter. This is a little less than 3/4ths of my total power points.