Psionics

Fluff-wise, I have no problem with it, but I'm an inclusionist. I want a system that will handle Conan to Lord of the Rings to Pirates of the Caribian to Indiana Jones to Al Capone to the Wild West to Die Hard and all the way up to Fallout, Star Trek, and Star Wars (not necessarally the specific liscensed products, but...). d20/3.5 worked, although it did take some creative DMing at times.

Mechanically, I would rather spell points be listed as an alternative option for spell casting, and have psionics mechanically work like the Force from Star Wars Saga.
 

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Considering that psionics need at least one core class, their own rules (at least some difference from spellcasting), a large number of powers, a decent number of special abilities, and again a good number of monsters, I think it deserves its own book. Otherwise the material in the core will necessarily be fairly small.
 

So hard to say. Here's my breakdown by preference:

1. The game is very generous with "fuzzy" definitions, allowing you to describe wizardy powers as psychic or psychic powers as magic or whatever. Then, if the campaign doesn't warrant psionics, the classes are still usable with a shift in definition. Subpreference A: fuzzy without psionics in the book. Subpreference B: fuzzy with psionics in the book.

2. Don't include them, but add them in a release soon after. Adding them 5 years into our campaigns is just a hassle.

3. Simply isn't there.
 

I have this odd theory that being in a supplement has actually hurt the quality of the psionic rules.

Because psionics has an entire book devoted to it, it always ends up in this super-complex, fiddly system. Compare to magic. Magic is mostly point and cast. It's simple, and easy to use, and gets expanded later.

While psionics always ends up in an overly complex place. And I think it's because the designers always have a full book to work with and create complicated rules.

I wouldn't mind seeing psionics in 5E, in a supplement or core. But I would like to see a system that is as simple as magic, but is definitely not magic. No idea what that would be, though.
 

As I have said here and elsewhere before, I like Psionics (or something similar) for modern or future genre games (where I remove "magic") rather than Medieval Fantasy and the like.
 

To what degree should psionics be incorporated into 5e?
They should be placed in some sort of toxic-waste containment vessel of an optional module, preferably associated with Dark Sun, the only D&D setting in which they remotely have anything of value to add - if not in a Gamma World or other sci-fi/science-fantasy adjunct to D&D, along with mutants, laser pistols, and other things that have just as much right as psionics to be in an heroic fantasy RPG.

I know psionics in D&D has been controversial since, heavens, the beginning practically. It's the old 'fantasy vs. scifi' argument
Yep. Sci-fi/Fantasy are often placed on the same shelves at bookstores, but that doesn't mean Mr. Spock should be mind melding with Frodo to keep The Ring from controlling him.

See Julian May's wonderful Saga of the Pliocene Exile for example.
sci-fi, pure and simple. Having an alien race that vaguely alludes to celtic mythology and putting horses on the cover doesn't make your time high-tech time-travel epic /fantasy/.

Should it be part of the core system?
Absolutely not. OTOH, it should use the same mechanics and progressions as other Sources, rather than being abberant for the sake of being able to put 'power points' on the character sheet, or being another clumsy bolt-on 'option' that serves only to add to the complexity of the game.
 

They should be placed in some sort of toxic-waste containment vessel of an optional module, preferably associated with Dark Sun, the only D&D setting in which they remotely have anything of value to add - if not in a Gamma World or other sci-fi/science-fantasy adjunct to D&D, along with mutants, laser pistols, and other things that have just as much right as psionics to be in an heroic fantasy RPG.

Yep. Sci-fi/Fantasy are often placed on the same shelves at bookstores, but that doesn't mean Mr. Spock should be mind melding with Frodo to keep The Ring from controlling him.

sci-fi, pure and simple. Having an alien race that vaguely alludes to celtic mythology and putting horses on the cover doesn't make your time high-tech time-travel epic /fantasy/.

Absolutely not. OTOH, it should use the same mechanics and progressions as other Sources, rather than being abberant for the sake of being able to put 'power points' on the character sheet, or being another clumsy bolt-on 'option' that serves only to add to the complexity of the game.

I disagree with your points, however it is all a matter of opinion so obviously this works for you.

However, a counter example. First a clarification on why I believe they can exist side by side.

You can consider pisionics to be the "sci-fi" version of magic. Fair enough, so do I. See for me like in many popular stories, magic can ebb and flow, go away for an age, return etc. But psionics, being "reality" based would still exist.

True, both are similar (underlying sources of reality changing effects, etc.) but the approach is different.

To my example, in 1st edition, many powerful monsters and powers had psionic defenses. So I created a backstory where psionics (the will) was the most powerful force underlying the cosmos. It was the power used by the gods to alter reality. Divine power was what they granted through belief (here's will involved again). And magic was the tradition of the arcane that approached altering reality through a science like tradition of rituals and spells.

Convoluted? Typed into a message board sure..:) In play, fairly elegant.

Psionics worked in dead magic zones. Mind Flayers feared. Dragon Kings working on becoming gods through magic psionic mixes. Psionics hated and persecuted because the gods don't want it spreading and wizards dont trust it (burn it! burn it!). Wild unexplainable talents in certain people (danger sense etc). Monks altering their bodies through willpower but seemingly not magic.

And naturally in my campaign, the "Ancients" were psionic with weird unexplainable powers that were forbidden. (Because they were working on ascending to godlike creatures or were descended from the original race that built the cosmos).

Lot's of examples where using both and keeping them different work for us, both in fiction and dnd lore...but naturally this could seem contrived to others.

But it works for us.

/on topic

It was originally an appendix, so I would be cool with it as an add-on (love Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook) but I do want it different in flavor and play.
 

I suspect that Psionics in the main core books is probably just a sidebar, unless they include the Monk in the first books and make it psionic like in 4e. But it'll probably be psionic but in a different way like the 4e Monk.

Since Bruce Cordell who's been one of the main architects of Psionics since 3e, still works for WotC and is one of the designers of the next edition we'll probably see the Battlemind/Psychic Warrior return in some form for sure along with the Psion, which will in fact still have construct/creation powers as one of it's options. Though it's questionable about the Ardent's return, since it's always got a mixed reception ever since it's in debut back in 3e, they'll probably make another attempt to do it right. Probably could even see the Soulknife come back too in some form, even if it hasn't yet in 4e. Also a recent excerpt on the Monk using the Sublime Way shows that they'll also reuse some of the fluff from Book of Nine Swords in a lot of places, like they did in smaller places such as the PHBs before that.
 

Psionic-relevant snippets:

Q: Are you looking at power sources?
Rob: Not explicitly. We're not going to be using the power sources as keywords or anything any more (probably). You'll still have psionic characters and primal characters for example, but we won't be using those words or jargon to separate things.​

Greg: What's been the most challenging class to build?
Rob: The fighter is definitely one of the more challenging ones. Another would be the psion, who's currently over crying in the corner. I also think the current incarnations of the druid have been real challenging. Including all the different iterations of the druid from previous editions has been difficult while also trying to keep it from being overwhelming.​

Greg: Are there any classes that you're now interested in because of the design work you've been doing?
Rob: I really want to see feedback on the wild talents. There's a lot of different and interesting things going on there and I think there's a lot of room for feedback there on if they work, how they work.​
 

Looking at the Psionics Versus Magic, I've always felt they can abide side by side. It all depends on the flavour and background.

Personally I've always thought that Raymond E. Feists' Higher path magic would lend well to Psionics (magic), while the Lower path was the books/scrolls kind of magic.

There are a couple of other authors' worlds were Psionic type magic makes more sense than books/scrolls type of magic for what they do, and those stories are all considered Fantasy.
 

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