D&D 5E (2014) Public Brainstorming a public High-Level Mini-Adventure

[Shiroiken]

I kinda want to see how the casters will dominate in this encounter by itself. Its a bit more involved since there are so many high-level monsters.

I want to challenge the very notion that a single combat encounter completely favors a caster. I have a sneaking feeling that these "single combat days" don't actually pay attention to the full adventuring day exp budget and only present fights that were basically easily winnable anyways. In this scenario, its a bit harder to cast just one spell and completely win, especially since concentration and multiple enemies may make lockdown spells trickier to pull off.

Based on your setup though, the caster doesn't need to "dominate" the combat by taking on everything, since you've set up NPCs to be with them. Well built Rogue and Cleric NPCs could easily help take down the combat for either choice. For example, if the wizard paralyzes one monsters for a round or two, the rogue should obliterate it with critical sneak attack damage. While concentrating on whatever primary spell they want, said wizard could be dropping fireballs, cone of colds, or other non-concentration damage spells while the cleric protects & heals them. You're correct that no single "I win" spell is going to exist, but you don't need it with a party backing you. If you want to make it work, you have to run it with a single PC, which is going to be swingy in combat for both choices.

As for the adventuring day guidelines, a day's value is going to be Deadly+, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything either. I've put out Deadly x3 encounters before and watched my party brush it off like nothing (I've also had a Hard encounter almost TPK). A variety of monsters will be needed to figure out the full balance, and I truly doubt there are any monsters that are equally difficult for both.

But I'm excited to be proven wrong if I can. I don't mind being wrong, I just mind being told I'm wrong but not having any confirming experience.

However, there will still be external encounters which run chances of exhausting their resources like traps and non-explicitly combat encounters, so I want to see if casters can reserve enough resources at the end of the day.

I want the full high-level one-encounter experience to truly feel what the community feels, I think I already know a 6-8, 2sr day will have significant resource expenditure.

Going back to the NPCs, a well built Cleric and Rogue can bypass these spending few/none of the PCs resources. If you want a proper challenge, you've got to leave these to the PC only.

 

[Asisreo]

As for the adventuring day guidelines, a day's value is going to be Deadly+, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything either. I've put out Deadly x3 encounters before and watched my party brush it off like nothing (I've also had a Hard encounter almost TPK). A variety of monsters will be needed to figure out the full balance, and I truly doubt there are any monsters that are equally difficult for both.

Well, I actually have 2 more reasons to do it like this:

1. People will find it unrealistic/a slog/unplayable going through 6 encounters. I kinda agree, at least for the purpose of this exercise, that it would be basically no fun and harder to run throughout.
2. I want to see if the people in this forum have the system mastery/fortitude to choose those "right choice for the job" type spells or if they can do things optimally. I'll definitely be running these monsters to the best of my ability.

Also, I don't often do this so I'm unsure if this is safe, but I'm thinking of not giving characters any benefit of the doubt when it comes to doing stuff, meaning that if a player decides to use an ability that requires sight on an invisible creature, I might make those charges/resources disappear while the ability fails regardless.

But I'm thinking this might also be unrealistic.

Based on your setup though, the caster doesn't need to "dominate" the combat by taking on everything, since you've set up NPCs to be with them. Well built Rogue and Cleric NPCs could easily help take down the combat for either choice. For example, if the wizard paralyzes one monsters for a round or two, the rogue should obliterate it with critical sneak attack damage. While concentrating on whatever primary spell they want, said wizard could be dropping fireballs, cone of colds, or other non-concentration damage spells while the cleric protects & heals them. You're correct that no single "I win" spell is going to exist, but you don't need it with a party backing you. If you want to make it work, you have to run it with a single PC, which is going to be swingy in combat for both choices.

Going back to the NPCs, a well built Cleric and Rogue can bypass these spending few/none of the PCs resources. If you want a

I'm not necessarily doubting this, but I'm doing this in the spirit of realism and fairness since my previous challenge was said to be unfair or unrealistic. I want a comprehensive example, perhaps one that others can reference with real, genuine adventure and party design.

My idea for the NPC's, though, will be that they'll take very simple, logical action and will be built as simply as possible. For example, the cleric will be built almost entirely up with healing, resurrection, and curing spells while being in the Life Domain while Rogues will be Thief Rogues with stealth, theives' tools, and deception expertise.

So they'll have abilities but just not built "optimally" for dominating the battlefield.

 

[Flamestrike]

I want to challenge the very notion that a single combat encounter completely favors a caster. I have a sneaking feeling that these "single combat days" don't actually pay attention to the full adventuring day exp budget and only present fights that were basically easily winnable anyways.

No, its quite the opposite. Single highly deadly encounter days favor the full casters.

Longer adventuring days (with more short rests) favor the short rest based classes.

 

[Flamestrike]

These PCs (without magic items) have an Adventuring day XP budget of 160,000.

A solo encounter for 4 x 20th level PCs is literally an Ancient Red and an Ancient Green dragon at the same time (and even that is because the budget is multiplied by 1.5 due to 2 monsters).

And due to the likely presence of multiple magical items in the party, that would likely reduce the overall difficulty of the encounter by 1 level to 'Hard' instead of Deadly.

To even out the items, make both dragons spellcasting variants. Counterspell, mirror image, shield, misty step are all great choices.

 

[Asisreo]

These PCs (without magic items) have an Adventuring day XP budget of 160,000.

A solo encounter for 4 x 20th level PCs is literally an Ancient Red and an Ancient Green dragon at the same time (and even that is

Yes, I've taken that into account in my combat encounters.

The Chaos side will have an Ancient Brass Shadow Dragon, Balor, Purple Worm, and a Storm Giant.

The Order side will have a Solar, Pit Fiend, Gynosphinx, and a Beholder

The Chaos encounter has an adjusted exp value of 140,000. I do expect them to face them all at once, so action economy is on their side. The Order encounter has an adjusted exp value of 150,400.

So I'm having multiple powerful enemies in the game.

To even out the items, make both dragons spellcasting variants. Counterspell, mirror image, shield, misty step are all great choices.

I've entertained this (there's only 1 dragon btw) and I think it is a good idea to make the dragon an innate spellcaster.

I'm probably going to add more thematically appropriate/powerful spells, though, for the sake of "real adventure design" as well as avoiding accusations that I added stuff like counterspell just to pick on a caster. Plus, they'd probably try to counterspell back and it'd be a waste.

Instead, I'm immediately thinking it should be Circle of Death, Harm, Eyebite, and Evard's Black Tentacles to piece the theme together with okayish spells so using them won't make it seem like I chose it because I want to specifically hurt casters. I want casters to have an organic adventure experience, too, and not feel specifically picked on.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yes, I've taken that into account in my combat encounters.

The Chaos encounter has an adjusted exp value of 140,000. I do expect them to face them all at once, so action economy is on their side. The Order encounter has an adjusted exp value of 150,400.

So I'm having multiple powerful enemies in the game.

I've entertained this (there's only 1 dragon btw) and I think it is a good idea to make the dragon an innate spellcaster.

I'm probably going to add more thematically appropriate/powerful spells, though, for the sake of "real adventure design" as well as avoiding accusations that I added stuff like counterspell just to pick on a caster. Plus, they'd probably try to counterspell back and it'd be a waste.

Instead, I'm immediately thinking it should be Circle of Death, Harm, Eyebite, and Evard's Black Tentacles to piece the theme together with okayish spells so using them won't make it seem like I chose it because I want to specifically hurt casters. I want casters to have an organic adventure experience, too, and not feel specifically picked on.

Stick with reaction spells and defensive buffs that can be pre cast and spells with a bonus action casting. You don't want to eat into the creatures actions.

Misty step is particularly useful to escape walls of force and similar effects.

 

[Asisreo]

Stick with reaction spells and defensive buffs that can be pre cast and spells with a bonus action casting. You don't want to eat into the creatures actions.

Misty step is particularly useful to escape walls of force and similar effects.

I definitely want to get at least one defensive buff in his spellcasting set, but I'm still refining exactly which. I do only want one, though, as too many might give the sense of adversarial DM'ing.

Regardless, Ancient Dragons are Gargantuan and are too big to be trapped in Wall of Force or Force Cage given their size.

I'm still combing through and I especially want to find a spell which can force a large area into magical darkness, but I'm still having to search around.

As for a buff spell, I'm thinking about giving them Greater Invisibility or something else but I'm still in the decision phase.

 

[Rabulias]

I'm still combing through and I especially want to find a spell which can force a large area into magical darkness, but I'm still having to search around.

You should clarify how darkness works in this example, as there are different interpretations. Can creatures within it see out (i.e., it's a defensive spell to cast on yourself and your allies at times), or is it a globe of impenetrable darkness that cannot be seen into or out of short of something like devil's sight?

 

[Asisreo]

You should clarify how darkness works in this example, as there are different interpretations. Can creatures within it see out (i.e., it's a defensive spell to cast on yourself and your allies at times), or is it a globe of impenetrable darkness that cannot be seen into or out of short of something like devil's sight?

The latter is essentially how darkness does work. Unless you have some form of extra sight options, you'll be unable to see outside of even your own spell. This is an okay alternative for the Dragon, though, as it will have blindsight.

In fact, the Balor has truesight and the Purple Worm has Tremorsense and Blindsight. The only creature on the Chaos side that would be truly inhibited in any form by Darkness would be the Storm Giant, which does have an AoE that can threaten the area just outside of the Darkness' AoE.

 

[Asisreo]

I'm thinking of having the Order dungeon be heavily warded while the Chaos dungeon will be filled with powerful hazards.

I'm still avoiding openly hostile forms of balance like Antimagic fields and Dispel Magic Glyphs but I also want each dungeon to fit their theme.

In fact, I was wondering if I should add some form of mind control ward just to fit the theme of Order at the expense of Free Will, but I'll have to really start drawing up the maps.

They'll be in the form of 5-room dungeons but it might be more rooms depending on the overall feel.