Publishing Modules

[Sir Edgar]

Thanks for the great insight, Clark! It's nice to know someone can be so open and straightforward about their business numbers with fans. By the way, I really like my copy of Tome of Horrors and recommend it to everyone!

Anyhow, it's always surprising to know how small this business really is. I wonder how people try to make a living. Maybe just a few large publishing companies who accept submissions or take on subcontractors will be the way to go in the future. That way people who want to publish modules or adventures or whatever you want to call them can get their work printed and on the shelves without all the hassle of handling the business aspects and logistics.

So, maybe it's better off if most of the d20 companies out there approach this business as a "vanity press" venture not a money-making one AND keep their day jobs! That's because personally I can't imagine trying to make a living off of a selling a few thousand copies here and there. This is especially true when this work requires at least a few people's time and effort and you have to split up the profits.

Well, even so, I wish everyone in the business continued luck!

 

[MEG Hal]

MEG is selling more and more every time we put out a new book. That being said, I have a full time job like Clark. You need to look at this as making a profit because even a vanity press can't live in the hole. But as far as leaving what I am doing to do this full time it would be great, but there is a comfort in knowing I have a job and this money is all gravy . So I agree with Clark's assessment 100%.

 

[Sir Edgar]

What are your numbers, Hal?

 

[MEG Hal]

What are your numbers, Hal?

It depends on the item, but we have initial orders that are where Clark's average numbers for d20 companies are (1500-3000) and then go up from there. We have high hopes for Raw Recruits, an adventure for Dragonstar that was just released and that should be our "new winner". And source material always sells more then adventures on the whole for us, so while we are not upset with our figures we are not getting our new Mercedes-Benz autos either .

While we are in the book trade we do not have the SSS banner to get us in more stores, Clark is very fortunate about that, and we have not made any hardcovers as well, so we are doing well, and we are seeing more sales each release we obviously have room to grow and we are doing just that, with better art, writers and layout to give us a more polished look and feel, we will be here for a long time and we are carving out a niche as we speak.

 

[Sir Edgar]

Sounds like you're doing great! Congrats!

Do you get orders from the distributor prior to putting in an order with the printer or do you just estimate and store away copies? Have you sold over 5,000 copies of any product yet? I'm sure Necromancer Games has a few products that have sold over 10,000 copies (besides Tome of Horrors or Necropolis), but I think because they have a deal with Sword & Sorcery (White Wolf) there's a big cut that goes out, too.

It seems like you have to pump out a lot of product out there just to keep revenues coming in and stores tend to focus on new releases only, except for the best-sellers like the core rule books and successes like Book of Vile Darkness and Tome of Horrors. That's why I've noticed that after a year or two, a lot of d20 companies start hiring outside writers to keep the product flow going. Have you been doing that yet?

Learning more about this business is so interesting it makes me want to go and get an MBA or something.

 

[MEG Hal]

Have we sold anything that sold over 5,000 copies nope BUT we have yet to produce over 5,000 copies of any 1 book, we have produced over 4k and almost sold out of a few titles and as far as outside writers we have always had a force of freelance writers working with us.
Only 2 people owned Thunderhead Games and only 4 people have a % of Mystic Eye Games so in order to have about 2 items a month get produced we depend a great deal on freelancers, now some of them have been working for TG/MEG for over a year exclusively so they are more then freelancers to us but contractually they are freelancers. We have a great team as well as great imprint partners (Nat 20, Ambient, Vigilance) who we consider a great asset to the success of our company.
We have been very fortunate so far and seeing us grow and just looking at conventions you can tell we are getting bigger by leaps and bounds.

Example: Having our own booth at GTS this year and doubling our space for GenCon 2003 shows how strong we have become. The license with FFG to make Dragonstar adventures etc...just more strength from us. We are hoping to surprise and delight people even more in 2003 with some great product as well as some cool news.

As far as new releases only at your store, we agree backlist sales are slowing down which is why we are producing the "right" amount to make this company financially sound, that is why a vanity press mentality may get people in trouble. We are also getting new releases out every month to keep retailers and customers remembering who we are.

Ok, enough from me.

 

[MEG Hal]

I forgot about pre-order question, we have pre-orders but not liek they used to now most stores wait till they here it is available and then flood the distributor with orders so we have ideas of presale numbers but the actual numbers always surprise us--in a good way .

 

[Sir Edgar]

I don't understand this business, so please bear with me. Are you saying that you place the order (for say 3,000 copies) with the printer and then hope and wait it matches up with demand from retailers? So, do you pay for storage for copies yet to be sold or do you just rely on fixed sales to the distributors? Sorry, if I am not knowledgeable about all of this, but it is all very interesting.

Also, what do the four people who have interest in your company do? If it was 100% owned by one person, do you think that person could make a living going at it full-time or do you always need that extra help?

About this part:

THG Hal--
"As far as new releases only at your store, we agree backlist sales are slowing down which is why we are producing the 'right' amount to make this company financially sound, that is why a vanity press mentality may get people in trouble."

I didn't understand it. Do you mean a vanity press company would just order 10,000 copies just for the sake fo flooding the market? Or do you mean a one-shot wonder won't make it in this business?

 

[Orcus]

You have to pay for the print runs up front and the art costs too. Before you even sell a single copy. That is the part that is hard for small companies. And print costs--on a hardback in particular--can be huge. Then add in art costs. For example, Tome of Horrors has over 400 b/w illos (thats a lot of art) and the book is over 300 pages in hardcover. That upfront print cost was HUGE! Thats why people think about trying PDF first, since the print cost is nearly nothing and there are no distributors taking any cuts.

As for the numbers I posted, I should clarify that those are a range based on my best guess. I dont have any real numbers from other companies, just anecdotal information based on things your hear at cons (which may or may not be reliable ). I am also pretty new to this business. There are many people who know way more about this stuff than me: John Nephew, Chris Pramas, Monte Cook, Nik, et al; all of whom post here regularly. I noticed John's one liner that he posted previously on this thread, which is what prompted me to post...something about "where do you get your numbers." I hate to say it, but from my limited experience, the numbers are no where near what anyone would like them to be. I too figured there would be much greater volume because of the number of PHBs sold. But hey, what do I know! Maybe there are people out there selling 10,000 on a regular basis.

I should point out that people dont much like to discuss numbers and sales. I wouldnt hold my breath for much more info. Frankly, Hal has been more than forthcoming in providing his numbers, which is very helpful and very cool of him to do. As Hal mentioned, I am lucky and have pretty good distribution. So my numbers arent really comparable to someone who does not have my distribution. That means Hal's info is probably way more useful to you than mine.

Thanks Hal!

Clark

 

[Orcus]

Back to adventures...

I just reviewed John's prior posts and I agree.

As for adventures, the main problem is Dungeon Magazine. It has 3 to 4 adventures in it, full color with cool maps. OK, lets say only one of the adventures in each issue is something you would run, you can still use the maps from the lame adventures. It is a gold mine. Then look at the cover price. It is really hard to compete with that.

Ask yourself this: Why should a purchaser buy your module at a cover price more than Dungeon and get one adventure when they can buy Dungeon for cheaper, that has more adventures, is in full color, has cool maps and is from WotC so they are sure it will be rules tight? If you want to do adventures, I suggest you think about answering that question.

Clark