*cough* almost anyone who takes multiple apprentice levels are power-gaming because it is almost impossible to be able to justify in story how the person was learning two drastically different skills from two different sources at the same time, not to mention it is always done for cheap stuff like presented above *cough*
Pure speed!
- Thread starter candidus_cogitens
- Start date
Storminator
First Post
mkletch said:
Oh, I love these mature, unfounded, gross generalizations...
-Fletch!
Tsk, tsk, tsk, proper etiquette miboy! Never mix sarcastic (mature) with direct (unfounded, gross generalizations...) retorts!
I'm waiting to get my monk up to base speed of 90' so I can take Being Elsewhere from Beyond Monks: the Art of the Fight. You move so fast it gives a concealment bonus! Yeah baby!
PS
Unfounded? Let's see. Well, he says he is playing a barbarian who didn't have the strength to hang with the rest, then he is like "...well, I am going to have him take rogue apprentice & barbarian apprentice simply so I can have more skill points". That is power gaming. I have never once seen anyone use multiple apprentice levels for anything other than rules-lawyering themselves to higher stats & abilities, just like in this case.mkletch said:
Oh, I love these mature, unfounded, gross generalizations...
-Fletch!
Now let's look at it this way - a rogue is generally a very precise class, one that requires a great amount of skill, practice, & concentration, while the barbarian is a wild, very enduring class based almost entirely on survival.
Now, both of those are generalities, & there are exceptions to the rule in all cases, but let's look at it this way -
Generally, one becomes a barbarian by entering into a warrior class, but because of inability to control their rage, they were unable to advance in fighter levels, & began learning how to combat on their own, or by just living in a rather secluded manner, learning personal inner strength over practical fighter techniques.
Now, the rogue class is something that someone must practice very heavily. Something that requires alot of attention, & generally someone to teach, or at least a good deal of people or things to practice on. I really don't see that many instances where a Rogue would be a Barbarian, as a Barbarian probably would have the concentration to become a Rogue right away, & a Rogue probably wouldn't have the strength or need to look into combat that a Barbarian would.
Now, an apprentice level is generally understood that the person has become an apprentice, learning from someone else who are teaching these skills. Now, I really cannot see anyone really every being an "apprentice" Barbarian, as I don't see how the skills of rage & primal battle to really be able to be taught. And like I said, why would someone who was becoming a Barbarian become a Rogue at the same time, & how would they be able to justify the concentration of both classes?
And as the person said, this guy obviously lived with Barbarians, so where did he become an apprentice for a Rogue at? And what Rogue instructor would live around Barbarians.
This is obviously (and was stated as) a power-gaming issue where the player wanted nothing but more abilities.
Now, both of those are generalities, & there are exceptions to the rule in all cases, but let's look at it this way -
Generally, one becomes a barbarian by entering into a warrior class, but because of inability to control their rage, they were unable to advance in fighter levels, & began learning how to combat on their own, or by just living in a rather secluded manner, learning personal inner strength over practical fighter techniques.
Now, the rogue class is something that someone must practice very heavily. Something that requires alot of attention, & generally someone to teach, or at least a good deal of people or things to practice on. I really don't see that many instances where a Rogue would be a Barbarian, as a Barbarian probably would have the concentration to become a Rogue right away, & a Rogue probably wouldn't have the strength or need to look into combat that a Barbarian would.
Now, an apprentice level is generally understood that the person has become an apprentice, learning from someone else who are teaching these skills. Now, I really cannot see anyone really every being an "apprentice" Barbarian, as I don't see how the skills of rage & primal battle to really be able to be taught. And like I said, why would someone who was becoming a Barbarian become a Rogue at the same time, & how would they be able to justify the concentration of both classes?
And as the person said, this guy obviously lived with Barbarians, so where did he become an apprentice for a Rogue at? And what Rogue instructor would live around Barbarians.
This is obviously (and was stated as) a power-gaming issue where the player wanted nothing but more abilities.
mkletch
First Post
Orias, have you ever considered that the rage ability is something that must be learned?
Yes, he is the runt of the tribe, tries to learn, but finds that it is not his path. So, he does other things, to make his way, and also to survive in a violent culture. And this is excessive? You have a most bizarre concept of the game.
-Fletch!
Orias said:
Yes, he is the runt of the tribe, tries to learn, but finds that it is not his path. So, he does other things, to make his way, and also to survive in a violent culture. And this is excessive? You have a most bizarre concept of the game.
-Fletch!
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But then why would he take 0 level for both classes, & then go up in each of those classes? Where would he learn the rogue abilities simultaneously while learning how to be a barbarian?mkletch said:
I would have no problem is it was a level one or two barbarian who quit being a barbarian & started going up in rogue, but this is not the case. The taking two apprentice classes in two classes who are nearly the opposite of each other just to get extra skill points is obviously a power-gaming issue.
I have a bizarre concept of the game? Well, excuse me if thinking someone who is a 0 barbarian/ 0 rogue just to get extra speed & skill points is bizarre, but I prefer to look at the game logically, & actually play D&D as a roleplaying game, not a rollplaying game.
From what has been said, it is obvious he should be a level 1 barbarian before he could even start learning how to fend for himself outside of the tribe. If he grew up with barbarians, & wants the barbarian's skill enhancement, he should just have to suffer the loss of skill points.
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candidus_cogitens
Explorer
I guess it is time to reply to this serious allegation ... that I am powergaming! 
I decided to do apprentice levels partly for character reasons and partly for what you might call "powergaming" reasons.
The character reason is that I thought it would not make much sense to start off as a rogue and then switch to barbarian at level two, only to switch back at level three. It seemed more reasonable that starts out with some barbarian abilities and some rogue abilities. And I don't think it really amounts to a huge advantage over what other starting characters might have.
But, perhaps you would say that any time you take only one level in a second class, it is power gaming. But that isn't what you said, so I assume it is not your point of view.
So, maybe what you would have found preferable, Orias, would be to take barbarian at first, and then switch to rogue from then on. The problem with that is that the rogue is severely weakened if you don't start out as a rogue at level one--weakened in a way that no other class is. A rogue's strength is in his skills. If you don't start out as a rogue at first level, you end up 24 skill points behind, or more! So, I think it is reasonable to want to avoid that crippling disadvantage.
I decided to do apprentice levels partly for character reasons and partly for what you might call "powergaming" reasons.
The character reason is that I thought it would not make much sense to start off as a rogue and then switch to barbarian at level two, only to switch back at level three. It seemed more reasonable that starts out with some barbarian abilities and some rogue abilities. And I don't think it really amounts to a huge advantage over what other starting characters might have.
But, perhaps you would say that any time you take only one level in a second class, it is power gaming. But that isn't what you said, so I assume it is not your point of view.
So, maybe what you would have found preferable, Orias, would be to take barbarian at first, and then switch to rogue from then on. The problem with that is that the rogue is severely weakened if you don't start out as a rogue at level one--weakened in a way that no other class is. A rogue's strength is in his skills. If you don't start out as a rogue at first level, you end up 24 skill points behind, or more! So, I think it is reasonable to want to avoid that crippling disadvantage.
candidus_cogitens
Explorer
Seule said:
Cool! I need to look at that. Unfortunately, I don't get Dragon (crazy as that may sound).
