Pushing Really Big things

keterys · Jul 11, 2009

Oh. Well, he has to shift 1 before he slides the Tarrasque so it doesn't really matter. If there's no legal square, he doesn't go anywhere.

Though, on that note, I believe you can just stand underneath the Tarrasque due to the size difference.

Flipguarder · Jul 11, 2009

Keterys now it is you i believe who needs to reread the power. If the shift happens first, how in gods name do you ever end where the creature was, a possibility explicitly explained in the power.

UltimaGabe · Jul 12, 2009

N0Man said:
Why is this ridiculous?

No, no, no, please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that it's ridiculous from a flavor standpoint. I've ALWAYS been of the opinion that you can describe any action however fantastically you want, so long as it plays out mechanically as the action intends. My beef with forced movement and larger-sized creatures is that it's so poorly explained that it's very hard to work out on a battlemat.

Footwork Lure is the big culprit here, because it says that you "slide the target into the space you left"- even if the space you left is only one square wide, and the creature's space is four squares wide. If you shift so that there's one square between you and an ally, can you slide a large-sized creature between the two of you so that you're flanking? What about a huge-sized creature? Gargantuan? Is it only taking up one square? If not, how many of the four squares have to fit? If the four squares don't all fit, what happens? Why isn't this even remotely brushed upon in the power's description? Tide of Iron (another Fighter At-Will) at least somewhat limits the ridiculous situations, saying that it can only be used on something that's large or smaller. Did nobody think that Footwork Lure would be used on something Huge or Gargantuan? I think, honestly, the biggest problem here is that instead of saying a specific number of squares (such as Tide of Iron's one-square push), it leaves it vague enough so as to be confusing. If it was simply something like "shift, and slide the creature one square", then size wouldn't be an issue. But the wording of "into the space that you left" doesn't work without any mention of larger creatures.

I never made any claim about using Footwork Lure to push a big creature off a cliff. (I haven't put too much though into it, but I can't even think of a situation where such an act would be possible.) I'm not saying that the lack of a size restriction is unbalancing the game at all. I, as a player and a DM, just find it very hard to adjudicate certain situations brought up by Footwork Lure.

keterys · Jul 12, 2009

Flipguarder said:
Keterys now it is you i believe who needs to reread the power. If the shift happens first, how in gods name do you ever end where the creature was, a possibility explicitly explained in the power.

I'm sorry, but no that's just not what Footwork Lure does.
'You can shift 1 square and slide the target into the space you left.'

Maybe you're thinking of a different power like Bait and Switch or Leaf on the Wind that allow swapping places. Those could potentially get tricky, as I think I already mentioned for Bait and Switch

Though, again, it might help you to know that you can stand in the space of a creature two or more size categories larger than you, so the fighter _could_ shift into the space of the Tarrasque.

Or do you mean someone doing something crazy like saying 'Okay, I shift 1 then slide him into my space via a 16 square slide that goes around where I am, off the cliff (maybe through the wall of fire, what not), and in from the other side. I think that's clearly against RAI

keterys · Jul 12, 2009

UltimaGabe said:
Footwork Lure is the big culprit here, because it says that you "slide the target into the space you left"- even if the space you left is only one square wide, and the creature's space is four squares wide.

There are rules for forced movement and allowable spaces. The slide would be stopped by the blocking terrain, just as much as if you tried to slide someone into a wall normally.

If you shift so that there's one square between you and an ally, can you slide a large-sized creature between the two of you so that you're flanking? What about a huge-sized creature? Gargantuan? Is it only taking up one square? If not, how many of the four squares have to fit? If the four squares don't all fit, what happens? Why isn't this even remotely brushed upon in the power's description?

No^3. Standard space. All. The movement is stopped. It's in the standard rules for forced movement, PHB p286 'Clear Path'.

Cheers.

DracoSuave · Jul 12, 2009

In this thread: People who are using a power named Footwork LURE as an indication of the silliness of physical force moving unfeasibly large objects. Also in this thread: People who know what -lure- means and aren't swayed by this one bit.

Never mind the fact D&D is about superheroic people doing superheroic things... a -lure- is not a physical object that forces motion in a direction, but a trick, a feint. That has nothing to do with the size of the target. You can fool a giant into coming into your square because some aspect of your skill has tricked him without even pulling on him physically.

In before someone tries to counter that dragons would not be affected by displays of physical prowess by a human that exists in a narrative scenario where he is expected to defeat said dragon, and others like him, with his prowess.

Flipguarder · Jul 12, 2009

ITT: Dracosuave skims my posts and makes an untrue judgement.

Although I do feel that pushing/sliding huge and gargantuan creatures is a little odd. My point is that in the use of footwork lure, there are no rules given for use on larger characters.

I believe there should be. I at least believe we should come to a consensus on what can happen in that situation.

DracoSuave · Jul 12, 2009

But what aspect of their size makes them less able to be lured? Their brains are just as trickable. If you can make the argument the beast cannot be lured, then you then must make the corollary that the beast cannot move of its own locomotion.

That is rediculous.

But even then, D&D is not a simulation of Newtonian physics. It's meant to simulate more the 'physics of awesome' you see in such media as God of War and Devil May Cry. Can Kratos pull a gargantuan beast? Yes. Why? Because he is awesome.