Pushing Really Big things

[Thundershield]

wow are you missing the point.

You switch places with a large creature.
SO:

<<<WHAT SQUARE OF THE LARGE CREATURE DO YOU SWITCH WITH?>>>
​

Any square within the target creature's space. Notice the distinction between space and square. A "space" is encompassed of all the squares a creature is occupying.

Say, you switch places with a Large creature. You pick any square within its space and go there, and the Large creature is placed in any space that encompasses as many of the squares you occupied before the switch as possible (which usually means any space that encompasses the square you occupied before).

As for the topic of applying forced movement on Large or larger creatures, there's usually no mitigating factors there, except terrain and other creatures on the battlefield usually makes it a little hard to move the huge creature around.

Also, notice that a creature has to have its entire space over the cliff to fall. If all but one square of the Tarrasque's space are over the pit, it still won't fall because one square is still on the ground. Sure, that's a bit odd, but it keeps huge creatures from falling into holes that are too small to hold them.

 

[keterys]

You don't. Footwork Lure doesn't work like that.

Now, if you were using a power that actually switches places, you'd use the rules for switching places, which are quite clear in the PHB p285. You slide it 1 square onto your square so it overlaps. You now shift to any square that it formerly contained. So that gives you 7 possible squares on its other side.

 

[Flipguarder]

Keterys whether you shift first or you slide first it still ends up being the same thing. Here's why:

It says you can slide the creature into the space you left, since you can use this power with a reach weapon, you would be hard pressed to say you can only slide the target one square. What does this mean?

When you use footwork lure on a creature of larger size than medium someone has to decide how the creature is situated in the square you slide him to. There are 3-4 possibilities with a large creature (depending on if you are using hexagonal or square combat maps.)

 

[boolean]

DnD characters are superheroes. That is all.

Agreed. The Ancient Red Dragon (or Terrasque, or Orcus, or whatever Really Big Monster you wish to discuss) _has_ a defense against these things. Four in fact: AC, Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.

I can't remember the defenses of an ARD off the top of my head, but they're high enough that it _is_ practically impossible for 99.9% of the game world's population to push/pull/slide one.

 

[Chzbro]

I could be wrong, but I think the problem here is the understanding of where the creature ends up.

Assuming the aforementioned creature on a cliff, if you use Footwork Lure, you must first hit, then shift 1. I know we're all on the same page thus far.

Now you slide the creature into the space you left. There is no way to slide the creature off the cliff, however, because you can only slide him to the spot where you were (even if that is 2 squares with a reach weapon). People seem to be assuming that you can slide ANY of the gargantuan creature's squares into the square you left, but that's simply not true. You can only slide the leading edge of the creature into that square.

If you want to slide him to where he's mostly off the cliff (only his "back" square in the fighter's vacated square), you have effectively slid him 3 additional squares after you met the condition of sliding him into the square you left. Once that first part of him is in the square you left, you've done what the power says you can do. You can't keep sliding him because you "choose" to have the square furthest away from you be the square that you are sliding.

If that doesn't make sense, consider this: if that gargantuan creature shifts 1, does he get to choose which of his squares ends up 1 square away? Of course not or he'd really be shifting 2 or 3 or 4. The lead edge is the only one that matters when counting movement for creatures, and this is true of forced movement too (it just doesn't matter unless you're dealing with bigger than medium-sized creatures).

I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone else, but I think that's at the heart of the discussion here.

 

[Flipguarder]

The power does not say you slide the creature one square. The power does not even say that you slide the target the fewest squares to your position. You are giving the power limitations that it doesn't specify.

Not to say your statements aren't reasonable or even not RAI, but it is not RAW.

 

[Chzbro]

I believe that it is RAW, but I understand if you disagree.

By your interpretation, a fighter would be within the RAW to slide the dragon (or whatever) 20 squares backward into the pool of lava, then 20 squares left through the Wall of Blades, and then 20 squares back to be dropped off the cliff.

I don't think I can contradict this interpretation by RAW (although I'd like to think that it can be refuted somehow--I simply lack the initiative/conviction to try).

However, what I don't think can be interpreted differently is this: once you have slid even one square of the creature into the square you left, you have to stop. You have done what the power allows you to do. You can't keep sliding him until he's positioned the way you want him.

However, if you're saying RAW allows you to swing him around in a big loop such that you can knock him off the cliff before ever reaching the square you're sliding him to, well, I guess that might be right...however, I think this is the kind of exploit that doesn't really require errata because I have a hard time imagining any DM who would allow it.

 

[Flipguarder]

except for your example of my interpretation (nothing I said allows for 20 squares of any movement thank you very much) I agree with pretty much everything you said.

All I'm trying to say is that by raw theres a little bit of a gray area. I suppose it doesn't really need errata per say. But I'd like to think that everyone can come to the similar view that when you slide a creature using footwork lure you must slide them as efficiently as possible (decided by the dm) to where the attacker was before his shift. Also once any one of its spaces into your previous location footwork lure stops sliding.

Because I agree this is the most reasonable way of ruling the situation and most likely RAI. I just don't believe it's RAW and I dislike my players arguing with me about how things like this function (however rare that situation might be)

 

[Chzbro]

I hope I didn't put words in your mouth. I was only taking the situation to the extreme to illustrate the point, not trying to claim you thought such an example was reasonable.

As I said, I don't know for sure that there is anything in the RAW that disallows even the extreme example I gave (although I hope there is, I'm certainly not confident of that nor do I particularly relish the thought of trying to track it down).

Maybe some gullible rube...er, helpful fellow on these boards can provide something more concrete.

 

[AngryMojo]

One thing to remember about this is the character's level. Most gargantuan creatures are going to be encountered by characters level 21+. By that point you have an epic destiny, and are something beyond what a normal mortal would be.

For example, could Bob the level 3 fighter push that ancient red dragon back? Probably not. Could Hercules, the level 25 fighter/kensai/demigod? Absolutely.