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Pushing the 4th edition envelope

I have experimented with two-hit minions (let's call them mooks). They have an hp threshold of 5+level. If you damage them and meet or exceed the threshold then you kill them out right. If you do less than the threshold then you bloody them. Any damage to a bloodied mook kills them. Also they do twice the damage of a minion.

I don't like such approaches personally, because I want to avoid any tracking on individual minions. So I instead consider giving minions a hp threshold, if your damage is below that threshold, the minion gets a save and survives (no bloodied state, however). The save might get penalized on a "per encounter" basis, so if the first minion succeeds, the second has a -2 penalty. The penalty would be removed once a minion fails the save. I mostly consider this for all automatic damage effects, not for actual hits (Usually though, the damage threshold should be so low that "normal" damage rolls would be above the threhsold anyway. Automatic damage effects usually have lower values, though.)
 

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I don't like such approaches personally, because I want to avoid any tracking on individual minions. So I instead consider giving minions a hp threshold, if your damage is below that threshold, the minion gets a save and survives (no bloodied state, however). The save might get penalized on a "per encounter" basis, so if the first minion succeeds, the second has a -2 penalty. The penalty would be removed once a minion fails the save. I mostly consider this for all automatic damage effects, not for actual hits (Usually though, the damage threshold should be so low that "normal" damage rolls would be above the threhsold anyway. Automatic damage effects usually have lower values, though.)

The tracking is just using bloodied token so it isn't that bad to track. However, I like the save approach as well.
 

I don't like such approaches personally, because I want to avoid any tracking on individual minions. So I instead consider giving minions a hp threshold, if your damage is below that threshold, the minion gets a save and survives (no bloodied state, however). The save might get penalized on a "per encounter" basis, so if the first minion succeeds, the second has a -2 penalty. The penalty would be removed once a minion fails the save. I mostly consider this for all automatic damage effects, not for actual hits (Usually though, the damage threshold should be so low that "normal" damage rolls would be above the threhsold anyway. Automatic damage effects usually have lower values, though.)

That still sounds like too much fuss to me. I was thinking along the lines of the Savage Demise feature of orcs. When the minion is hit he dies, but gets one last attack. One could also give minions a high initiative bonus, so chances are they get at least two attacks.
 



I think we started doing '2-at-a-time' levelling around 11-12th about 6 months into our HPE campaign.

But we were levelling faster than standard and I was combining or eliminating the padding encounters.
 

The problem with spreading an encounter budget across multiple fights without short rest is that you roll initiative each time (presumably) which makes initiative far more important and means that initiative optimization can result in no combats being threatening, at all.

It's very easy for a group to kill several minions or a standard (or even an elite) before it gets to act; usually you make up for that by there being a bunch of other guys as well.

This can be particularly painful if you have a mix of initiatives, with a couple slower types and a few faster types, where the slower folks never act at all.

I actually hadn't realized this before, but one of my silly little initiative house rules is part of what actually makes this viable: I only have PC's roll initiative, and then have the creatures go in between party members (after them usually, or before them if the creature gained surprise). I did this because I didn't like the "clumping" effect that a d20 roll can sometimes create, and because the flow of player turn/DM turn/player turn/DM turn is a pretty good table dynamic.

So more than a high Init bonus, what becomes important is gaining (or avoiding) surprise, and even that isn't entirely dominating. Though the degree to which it influences adventure strategy for me is a good change: a party who thinks about approaching a room full of minions by scouting it out with the party sneak and then trying to get an ambush and then keeping the fight quiet...that's a party I'm happy to reward with a fairly easy fight and a bit of XP they didn't suffer too much to get. :)

Mudstrum Ridcully said:
So I instead consider giving minions a hp threshold, if your damage is below that threshold, the minion gets a save and survives (no bloodied state, however). The save might get penalized on a "per encounter" basis, so if the first minion succeeds, the second has a -2 penalty. The penalty would be removed once a minion fails the save. I mostly consider this for all automatic damage effects, not for actual hits (Usually though, the damage threshold should be so low that "normal" damage rolls would be above the threhsold anyway. Automatic damage effects usually have lower values, though.)

I think I'm going to adopt some save-or-die minions (maybe without the penalty). I like minions in general, but sometimes I want a bit more granularity on damaging effects than they can provide (but still don't want to do the work of counting hit points, because counting is for suckers. ;)).
 


I'll take a run at the last one as they are near and dear to my heart, Exploration Skill Challenges.

I've used them aplenty in my two 4e games and, although others may disagree, I think the system's tools are beautifully built to convey the emotion and desperation of such play. Here are the component parts that I've used to good effect. I would recommend others organize their GMing technique around these tools and principles.

1. The Disease.


You can name it whatever you'd like or leave it unnamed (its likely that the players will only be exposed to its dastardly effects, not its tag). Regardless, it needs to attack surges, defenses, forbid benefits from an Extended Rest and it needs to be tenaciously persistent. I typically use Level + 5 versus Fort rather than the standard Level + 3. If you want to make it more virulent, you can step up the DCs by one (trade Easy for Moderate and Moderate for Hard). Anyway, as below:

Exposure: On each accrued failure, all party members are attacked.
Attack: Level + 5 vs Fortitude.
Special: On any successful attack, the target's stage of the disease increases by one.

Stage 0: The target recovers from the disease.
Stage 1: While affected by stage 1, the target loses 2 healing surges.
Stage 2: While affected by stage 2, the target loses a healing surge and takes a -2 penalty to AC, Fortitude, and Reflex.
Stage 3: While affected by stage 3, the target takes a -2 penalty to AC, Fortitude, and Reflex and cannot gain the benefits of an Extended Rest.

Check: At the end of each Extended Rest, the target makes an Endurance check if it is at stage 1 or 2. Stage 3 is removed by successful completion of the Exploration Skill Challenge or by the Cure Disease Ritual.
Lower than Easy DC: The stage of the disease increases by one.
Easy DC: No Change
Moderate DC: The stage of the disease decreases by one.
Special: The level of the disease equals the target’s level.


2. Expedition Role.


Just like establishing Marching Order in a dungeon is important so you know who will deal with what danger/complication, it is equally important to establish Expedition Roles in Exploration Skill Challenges. This will provide the players with agency and focus to determine how they specifically wish to be challenged when the GM derives complications/adversity as the fiction/challenge evolves. I find Dungeon World does a great job at breaking out the roles of an expedition in its Perilous Journey section (and the rules that interact with it). However, most D&D groups, due to their size, will require one more role. The roles I use are as follows:

- Trailblazer: Expedition leader, administrator, morale manager, organizer, final decision-maker.

- Scout: Reconnoiter, out-runner/rider, observer, seeker, surveyor.

- Quartermaster: Provisioner, supply manager, camp manager.

- Traveler: These folks are along for the ride but can sub in for another role as required.

3. Generating Thematic Complications.

Again, Dungeon World's advice on "Making Moves" is a good way for GMs to organize their thoughts and be prepared for what may come as the fiction emerges.

Dungeon World RPG Chapter 13: GM Moves, p 163 and 164

Moves

- Use a monster, danger, or location move​
- Reveal an unwelcome truth​
- Show sings of an approaching threat​
- Deal damage
- Use up their resources
- Turn their move back on them
- Separate them
- Give an opportunity that fits a class' abilities
- Show a downside to their class, race, <tools/build/powers/equipment>
- Offer an opportunity, with or without cost
- Put someone in a spot
- Tell them the requirements or consequences and ask <a focused question>

Lots of great stuff there. One thing to remember is that "Use up their resources" and "Deal damage" basically means the same thing in a 4e Skill Challenge; tax the group 1 or more surges. Healing Surges are a wonderful open descriptor tool for Exploration Challenges. They can be anything from spoiled rations/lost provisions or supplies to the desperate morale hit of getting turned around, cresting a ridge to see an impassable gorge, getting terribly lost to an actual exposure event (starvation, frostbite, et al). Tax the PCs, the whole group, and do it with vigor.

Hazard attacks, encounters with hit and run predator packs, turning weather, stumbling upon a dangerous lair, geologic events, dangerous encounters with primitive natives, brutal accidents for an NPC they are escorting (eg a horrible fall that causes a broken leg), ominous weather conditions on the horizon or a terrible event that blows up from nowhere, environmental exposure (hypothermia, starvation), perhaps they are exposed to a 2nd concurrent disease (a true disease such as malaria or abyssal plague).

There are all manner of Exploration Trope-centric ways to complicate your players lives. Keep in mind their roles, consider source material (eg Heart of Darkness, Touching the Void, Alive, The Way Back) or famous expeditions, especially those who were unsuccessful (such as the Greely Expedition to the Arctic).

And don't forget Group Checks (typically Athletics, Endurance, Perception, Stealth) with half or more of the group passing being a success!
 

Manbearcat said:
Just like establishing Marching Order in a dungeon is important so you know who will deal with what danger/complication, it is equally important to establish Expedition Roles in Exploration Skill Challenges. This will provide the players with agency and focus to determine how they specifically wish to be challenged when the GM derives complications/adversity as the fiction/challenge evolves. I find Dungeon World does a great job at breaking out the roles of an expedition in its Perilous Journey section (and the rules that interact with it). However, most D&D groups, due to their size, will require one more role. The roles I use are as follows:

- Trailblazer: Expedition leader, administrator, morale manager, organizer, final decision-maker.

- Scout: Reconnoiter, out-runner/rider, observer, seeker, surveyor.

- Quartermaster: Provisioner, supply manager, camp manager.

- Traveler: These folks are along for the ride but can sub in for another role as required.
I love the ideas you posted! I agree with many of them, have tried some of them, and was inspired to try something new by several of them!

I'm curious about this part in particular - the character roles during exploration. How exactly do you use those in your game? I tend to find all those tasks you divide according to role blur together organically among different PCs as the mood strikes them. Are there particular rules you've introduced for handling those tasks? For example, what does "camp manager" mean rules-wise? Another example, the ranger is very likely both Trailblazer (when traveling) and Quartermaster (when camping) - how do you involve other PCs to tackle these tasks then?
 

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