Putting Hit Points back into Mutants and Masterminds

[JovianT]

However, as for HP systems for M&M I believe there's a pretty good one over in The atomic think thank and I know @WalkingDad was working on one.

Anyway you can provide a link for that? I'd appreciate it greatly! Been scouring the Internet for days in search of a guide for introducing Hit Points in M&M including the Atomic Think Tank site but haven't found one posted yet so just threw mine together out of desperation. Would love to see another complete system for doing the same thing or get some more input on what's wrong with the ideas above.

 

[Diamond Cross]

This is from the M&M Manual (2nd Edition) Page 111 - 112:

HIT POINTS

Characters in this system have hit points, which are a measure of
the character’s capacity to take damage. Characters have hit points
equal to their Constitution score plus their Constitution bonus multiplied
by 3. So a Con 10 character has 10 hit points and a Con 30
character has 60 hit points. Characters with no Con score have hit
points equal to five times their Toughness. Minions have half the
normal hit points of regular characters; determine the minion’s hit
point total normally, then divide it by two and round down.

When the character suffers lethal damage, hit points are marked off.
Characters are disabled at 0 hit points, dying at –1 or fewer hit points,
and dead at –10 hit points. If a single lethal attack does more damage
than the character’s Constitution score, he must make a Fortitude save
(DC 15) or immediately go to –1 hit points and dying.
Stun attacks do not inflict damage to hit points. Instead, they do
subdual damage. When the total subdual damage equals the character’s
hit points, he is staggered. When the total subdual damage
exceeds his current hit points, he is unconscious. If a single attack
does more damage (subdual or hit points) than the character’s
Constitution score, he is stunned for one round.

RECOVERY

Characters reduce their subdual damage by their Constitution bonus
for each minute of rest, with a minimum of 1 point per minute. They
recover their Constitution bonus in hit points for each day of rest with
a minimum of 1 point per day. Recovery speeds up these recovery rates
as usual, while a use of the Healing power allows the character to
recover 1d6 hit points (or eliminate 1d6 subdual damage) per power
rank. Proper medical treatment doubles recovery rates, as usual.

DAMAGE REDUCTION

Instead of adding to the character’s Toughness saving throws, powers
offering a Toughness save bonus provide damage reduction, reducing
the amount of damage inflicted. Multiply the power’s Toughness
bonus by 2 and reduce the damage inflicted by each attack on the
character by this amount. If the damage is reduced to 0 or less, it
has no effect on the character. For example, a hero with Protection
11 ignores the first 22 points of damage from each attack.
Impervious defenses multiply their Toughness bonus by 3 rather
than 2 to determine their Damage Reduction. So Impervious
Protection 11 provides damage reduction 33.

The Toughness save bonus from Defensive Roll also becomes
Damage Reduction, but with the same limitations as before.

HERO POINTS

Heroes can spend hero points to recover from damage just as they
can in the regular M&M system. A hero point allows immediate
recovery of (Con bonus) hit points or subdual damage.

OPTION TWO: WOUND AND VITALITY POINTS

Wound & Vitality (W&V) points are a variant of hit points. Instead of a
single pool of points to reflect damage, characters have two values.
Wound points represent the character’s ability to sustain injury.

Loss of wound points represents actual physical harm the character
suffers. Characters have wound points equal to their Constitution score
(or twice their Toughness for characters with no Con score).

Wound points operate like hit points in terms of the characters condition
(see the Hit Points section, previously).

Vitality points represent a character’s ability to avoid harm: ducking,
weaving, or otherwise escaping injury. As vitality points are lost
away, the character is being worn down to the point where a wrong
move will result in injury. Characters have vitality points equal to
twice their Constitution score (four times their Toughness for characters
with no Con score). Characters with no vitality points remaining
suffer wound damage from attacks.

Minions in the W&V system have no vitality points; they have only
wound points, so all attacks injure them and they’re more likely to
be taken out by an attack.

 

[JovianT]

Wow! Thanks for posting that ton of info Diamond Cross! That's very interesting.

However, as others have said, the current in game system for hit points is unsatisfying. It makes no direct use of power levels or power points to allow a player to easily custom build his or her character's hit points and can both make characters too squishy for a superhero campaign and simultaneously prevent them for getting the occasional satisfying quick kill results in combat. It's not all that imaginative in terms utilizing Hero Points either.

All and all it seems more it was tacked on as an afterthought than really intended to mesh with the rest of the game.

 

[Starfox]

An instant fix for stun lock would be to say that a character or villian can not be stunned while stunned. That's what I do in my games.

What difference would this make? A stun ends after you've missed your action. Multiple stun results do not make things worse. So stunned once or stunned ten times, you still only miss one action.

Right?

 

[JovianT]

I can't speak for Relique but It could be that since it says in the core book that

"character is stunned for one round: unable to take
actions, losing dodge bonus to Defense, and suffering an additional –2
reduction in Defense. This lasts until just before the attacker’s turn in the
initiative order on the following round"

It could lead to somebody really unlucky getting chain stunned by more than one attacker.

 

[Walking Dad]

I played M&M several times a few years ago and fell in love with it... until I played it. The game and rules are great, but I found combat to be broken. It seemed like combat resulted in several combatants getting stunned and then staying stunned until down. We didn't like it, so we tinkered with it, but we weren't familiar enough with the game to get it right.

...

I'm currently trying this to avoid stunlock:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/5576607-post242.html

This is very similar to the change the original designers implanted in it's 3rd edition.

 

[Walking Dad]

I would begin some changes to the Mastermind Manual Option, than making something completely up. You want HP dependent on the power level? make it dependent on something else (like the toughness save) that is itself dependent on the Power level but has a bit more variability (thanks to defense - toughness trade offs).

It would look like:

HIT POINTS

Characters in this system have hit points, which are a measure of
the character’s capacity to take damage. Characters have hit points
equal five times their Toughness. Minions have half the
normal hit points of regular characters; determine the minion’s hit
point total normally, then divide it by two and round down.

The rest can stay at it is, if you only want HD depending on PL instead of Con.
And their is already the 'Tough' feat in Wizards & Warlocks that simply adds 1 to toughness.

 

[Relique du Madde]

What difference would this make? A stun ends after you've missed your action. Multiple stun results do not make things worse. So stunned once or stunned ten times, you still only miss one action.

Right?

Since JovianT already posted the rule, you're probably wondering where it's hidden. Sadly, it's not conveniently written in one place....

Nicole rolls totals of 26, 25, and 18 after applying the modifiers. The first two saves result in no damage, but the third fails by 5, so Lady Liberty suffers another bruised result. She’s also stunned for one round, until just before the Power Corps’ action on the following round.

Stunned: The character loses any dodge bonus to Defense, takes a –2 modifier to Defense, and cannot take actions other than reactions.

The benefit may seem little, however it does prevent Stun Lock from being almost automatic.

 

[JovianT]

Thanks for all the replies and useful tips on how to avoid the dreaded stun-lock death spiral. This has been most educational.

I still like my made up system better than what's available officially as it makes characters somewhat tougher which is in keeping with a comic book style campaign. I also like the fact that it's a feat so that players can switch back and forth between both kinds of combat rather than being locked into one system.

Aside from being classless and having no hit points another thing that makes it difficult to bridge a traditional d20 game or gamers into a M & M campaign is the lack of the plethora of weapon bonuses that people are used to as the OP pointed out in his first post. At the risk of adding more dice and complexity to my campaign I'm thinking about making this feat available to help the players feel more at home. Any critique is welcome.

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Improved Weapon or Device Feat (Morale Variant Feat):[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Cost = 8 Power Points[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]One application of this feat grants a single Weapon or Device (feat cannot be applied to an innate Power or mere Equipment) an additional 1d4 amount of Subdual or Morale damage (both types of Special damage but not simultaneously) at Power rank 1 of the Weapon or Device. The Morale or Subdual damage done may be either Physical or Energy (any single type) but its exact nature must be specified when the feat is first applied and cannot be subsequently changed.[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]At the discretion of the GM this feat can also grant the Weapon or Device the ability to do partial or full Conventional damage to objects and creatures not normally subject to damage such as astral forms, or insubstantial ghosts (same as Affects Insubstantial feat), or undead and extra-dimensional creatures like vampires or werewolves or demons. In any event the Special and Conventional damage done by the Improved Weapon or Device is both Penetrating and Incurable. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Damage granted may be either Ranged or Melee and generally should be in keeping with the nature of the Improved Device or Weapon (For example: an enchanted sword could do extra Physical or Fire type Subdual or Morale damage to an adjacent target while a modified rifle could shoot bullets that do additional likewise Special Acid damage at range, etc.).[/FONT]

D[FONT=Courier New, monospace]evices worn (especially on hands or feet or limbs) which are themselves not normally Weapons such as gauntlets or rings or bracers can grant this extra Morale or Subdual damage exclusively to unarmed attacks (acts as a bonus to Strength for doing Morale or Subdual damage) if so desired. [/FONT]This option has to be set when the feat is first applied and cannot be later altered.

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]A single subsequent application of this feat to a particular Weapon or Device is allowed. The second application of this feat grants additional extra Morale and Subdual damage (stacking) to the Improved Device or Weapon as its Power ranks are increased at the following rate:[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Added Morale & Subdual Damage to Improved Weapon or Device by Power Rank[/FONT][FONT=Courier New, monospace]

Power rank 2 - +1d6 damage (+1d10 total)
Power rank 3 - +1d8 damage (+3d6 total)
Power rank 4 - +2d6 damage (+3d10 total)
Power rank 5 - +3d6 damage (+8d6 total)
Power ranks 6 & Up...(+1d6 / rank)

[/FONT] [FONT=Courier New, monospace]Improved Armor or other Devices which provide extra Defense instead of Offensive effects that have this feat applied to them get an extra bonus of 3 points of Impervious Protection from Subdual and Morale damage at Power rank 1. Additionally their normal Protection bonus to the Toughness save against Conventional damage is made Impervious. Any Flaws normally applied to the Protection provided by the Improved Device are negated for the purpose of defending against Subdual and Morale damage.[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]A single subsequent application of this feat to a particular defensive Improved Device is allowed. The second application of this feat grants additional Special bonus Impervious Protection points against Morale and Subdual damage only (stacking) to the Improved Device or Weapon as its Power ranks are increased at the following rate:[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Bonus Morale & Subdual Impervious Protection to Improved Device by Power Rank[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Rank 2 - +2 Impervious Protection points (+5 total)
Rank 3 - +4 Impervious Protection points (+9 total)[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, monospace][FONT=Courier New, monospace]Rank 4 - +6 Impervious Protection points (+15 total)
Rank 5 - +9 Impervious Protection points (+24 total)
Rank 6 and up... (+3 points / rank)[/FONT][/FONT]