TSR Q&A with Gary Gygax

This is the multi-year Q&A sessions held by D&D co-creator Gary Gygax here at EN World, beginning in 2002 and running up until his sad pasing in 2008. Gary's username in the thread below is Col_Pladoh, and his first post in this long thread is Post #39.

 

[Barak]

What? You think stubby rock-chewers should be more potent than the flighty ones of the forest? I am appaled!


Gary

And that's exactly what I meant by forthcoming typos. Obviously, by "appaled", Gary meant "agreeing".

What can I say. I love dwarves, I hate elves, and I'm human.

 

[Storm Raven]

As if all game rules weren't arbitrary, eh? Heh, and so much for you, mister smarty pants...

Some mechanics are more arbitrary than others. Dwarves get a bonus to Constitution because they are supposed to be generally tougher and hardier than other races. Elves get a bonus to Dexterity because they are generally more graceful than other races. The rules have a point built into their existence that makes sense from an internal perspective. Thus they are not wholly arbitrary.

On the other hand we have the rule "demi-humans can't advance beyond a certain level in any class other than thief" because . . . of nothing that can be expressed in internal terms. That makes the rule wholly arbitrary.

 

[Gray Mouser]

Note the word "progression"?

Of course. But ion your original quote it was progression of the story that you referred to, which, imo, isn't contingent on level progression.

All powerful elves are really good thieves? I don't buy it.

Of course not. Elves can reach up to 11th level as M-U's, 13th if you use UA. That's pretty powerful, imo. I can barely cast a first level spell, after all.

Of course, it's your campaign so you can do whatever you want. I had similar thought about level restrictions for a while but chnaged my mind. IMO, the racial abilities demi-humans get and the level limitations combine to do a fairly good job at representing the picture of such beings in mythology and literature. YMMV

Gray Mouser

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

If I can prise the subject of discussion away from demi-humans for a minute or two...

Gary, I'm working on preparing some 1e AD&D material set in the Spindrift Isles. I realise that Len Lakofka was largely responsible for these - but I'd welcome any reminiscences that I can persuade you to share about how - and where - the material devised by the worthy Leomund meshed with your own work and that of Mr Kuntz.

Were there lines of demarcation - "That's your bit, this is mine" - or did you all sort of pitch in and write whatever you felt like writing?

I'd also like to invite your comments on the "Wish" spell, particularly its uses for ressurecting dead players. I've heard it said that Wish could be used to raise any dead character (including those races which could not be raised through Ressurection) and that no system shock roll is required - would you agree or disagree?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Storm Raven]

Of course. But ion your original quote it was progression of the story that you referred to, which, imo, isn't contingent on level progression.

In general, it is. Which is the direction I was pointing. You move through the story dealing with successively deeper layers of opposition. Halting that at a topped out level for some characters (but not for others) is a really wonky mechanic.

Of course not. Elves can reach up to 11th level as M-U's, 13th if you use UA. That's pretty powerful, imo. I can barely cast a first level spell, after all.

Yet, to be on par with humans, elves have to multiclass as M-U/Thieves, for some reason. And the elvish M-U limit was among the highest allowed in the game, and beyond the levl of most 1e style campaigns. The kicker is this, if the level limits are that high, then they don't accomplish their intended purpose of balancing the demi-human races against humans. Whicl makes the mechanic both arbitrary and ineffective. Surely soimeone like Gygax could have come up with a better solution. I'm trying to see why he didn't.

Of course, it's your campaign so you can do whatever you want. I had similar thought about level restrictions for a while but chnaged my mind. IMO, the racial abilities demi-humans get and the level limitations combine to do a fairly good job at representing the picture of such beings in mythology and literature. YMMV

Which literature and mythology are you reading? It certainly doesn't represent the elves, dwarves of most of the fantasy literature and mythology I've seen.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

And that's exactly what I meant by forthcoming typos. Obviously, by "appaled", Gary meant "agreeing".

What can I say. I love dwarves, I hate elves, and I'm human.

Dwarven jesters have small wit

Heh,
Gary

 

[Gray Mouser]

Just so. The Norse dwarves were like giants in their powers, and the French fey were as potent as fairies in some fairy tales. Neither is suitable for inclusion as a character race in a FRPG. The original gnomes were earth elementals of considerable potency as well, but i modeled the D&D race after those in fable and fairy tale.

Heh, enter the svirfneblin! Now those are some gnomes that can give a party some major headaches, what with their elemental summoning abilities and all!

Understood. Many a participant loves elves, so adding more varieties, including the Drow, seemed a good plan. As I was thinking of detailing the Valley of the Mage, I thought it expedient to introduce that sort to the game

And kudos to you! I love Valley Elves, myself. They're rather limited in my own campaign world and I preserve the outsider aspect of them. In the lone Elvish kingdom there's perhaps 500 such chaps in their own communities.

Your treatment of those dark elves is absolutely the way I intended them to be.

Heh, I never understood people who wanted fantasy beings who were evil by nature to go through some great, existentialist struggle. Man, next thing you know Demogorgon will have his twin heads on some shrink's couch looking for some catharsis. I have news for you Demo: you are evil and your lot is to be set upon by every two-bit PC party that can make their way to the Abyss! Die! Die! Die!

Heh, sorry

While abberant individuals can be other than steeped in wickedness, the Drow race is EVIL, more so than the Melnibonean one of Michael Moorcock's creation

Cheers,
Gary

More evil than the Melniboneans! Yikes! Man, did a certain twin scimitar wielding Dark Elf confuse things for a lot of people. Even with Elric's angst and existential suffering you always knew the Melniboneans were a wretched lot.

Gray Mouser

 

[loki44]

On the other hand we have the rule "demi-humans can't advance beyond a certain level in any class other than thief" because . . . of nothing that can be expressed in internal terms. That makes the rule wholly arbitrary.

Darn it! I didn't want to get sucked into this discussion.....
I don't think it is arbitrary to simply say that demi-humans max themselves out at a given level. If I work out hard everyday eventually I will hit a plateau where it is physically impossible to improve (nowhere near that BTW ). The level of that plateau will vary from person to person. Is it too much of a stretch to imagine that, in fantasy terms, demi-humans reach their maximum potentials before humans do? My example was physical in nature but I don't find it implausible to think that an elven magic-user might reach a level at which he just can't cram another spell into his head whereas a human may have the capacity to learn more. The idea of "levels" is abstract anyway and purely a game mechanic. The characters themselves have no idea that levels even exist. The player knows his character has stopped "advancing" in terms of the game mechanic but I don't suppose the character would have a clue.

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Some mechanics are more arbitrary than others. Dwarves get a bonus to Constitution because they are supposed to be generally tougher and hardier than other races. Elves get a bonus to Dexterity because they are generally more graceful than other races. The rules have a point built into their existence that makes sense from an internal perspective. Thus they are not wholly arbitrary.

Au contraire, those selections are made by the game designer on the arbitrary basis of his preferences, or what he believes will make the game more enjoyable to an audience.

On the other hand we have the rule "demi-humans can't advance beyond a certain level in any class other than thief" because . . . of nothing that can be expressed in internal terms. That makes the rule wholly arbitrary.

No, "we" is not applicable. I made that rule because it fitted logically with the other assumptions I had set forth in the game. All of the total balderdash was completely at my whim, thus wholly arbitrary. It is you who are trying to rationalize your whims. To make them valid you need to write a game system

Cheers,
Gary

 

[Barak]

Dwarven jesters have small wit

Heh,
Gary

But big axes, which is why they hld their own, all things considered.

Alright, enough jesting. I do seriously wonder about demi-humans being limited in -all- classes (thief excluded). Elves are reknowned for their MU, dwarves for their fighters. Would it truly destroy the idea of human-domination to have each unlimited in their favored field?