Q: Adamantine/Mithral

[magnas_veritas]

Re: Re: Re: Q: Adamantine/Mithral

No you don't have to otherwise it would take years to create a mithril or adamantime item. It says you use the cost of MW to determine the creation time.

My impression is that the additional cost of the material doesn't just reflect rarity, but actually reflects that it's more difficult to shape and forge into something. Adamantine *is* ultrahard, after all.

Of course, that's just my impression. I do hope they make the Craft rules more player-friendly, as this does get a tad...mean. See below.

They did this so that non hundreds of years living characters could actually create an item in thier lifetime. Which to me actually ruins the specialness of M/A. I like the idea that only dwarfs or elfs have the time and paticence to create a M/A item.

Heh. Then use what I have above. After all, using a 10th-level dwarven expert with Int 16, 13 ranks Craft (Armorer), and a +10 competence bonus from his Tongs of the Armorer, making a suit of adamantine full plate would take him 23 weeks for the armor (taking 10 check result of 38 x DC of 18), 2 weeks for the masterwork, (38 x DC of 20) and 132 weeks for the adamantine...or 157 weeks in total, for a grand total of 3 years or so for that one suit of shiny black full plate.

Man, that does suck. I hope I'm wrong.

Brad

 

[RedSwan78]

Well, here's the thing. The DMG says the items are "treated as masterwork items WITH REGARD TO CREATION TIMES "

That says it right there.. this is rare and hard stuff to work with, so it takes longer.

NOW, check out what it says for Darkwood items.. "Any wooden or mostly wooden item made from darkwood is considered a MasterWork item and weighs only half as much"

That says it right there. A/M items are only treated with regard to creation times. If it wanted them to BE MW items, it would say the same thing that DarkWood does.

Add to that the fact that the bonus from A/M and MW STACK per the FAQ, that's the answer that *I'm* going with.

Seriously though, that has to be the most shoddily written passage in the DMG and creates the most confusion! hehe. You and your gaming group need to talk it over and decide on what you want to do with it, and take it from there. My gaming group and I have talked it over and decided on what I presented above. Yes that means you have to have MW A/M items to make them magical.

Hopefully it'll be cleared up in 3.5

(seriously, this argument can go on for forever, so just take what information YOU like, and decide on it with your group. Pretty much everyone is split on what they think)

EDIT- Ya know what? Honestly though, I hope they just clear this all up in 3.5 and say that they *are* MW items.. lol!

 

[The Souljourner]

Heh, there are a lot of things I hope they clean up. But you're right, it's a crappily written passage and is quite open to interpretation. Personally, I wouldn't put Oriental Adventures FAQ high on my list of authorative sources for DMG errata, but maybe that's just me.

BTW, I don't think the cost of the material should be added the the cost to create the item. I always figured it was half cost for materials, and then the other half of the cost is blood sweat and tears.... otherwise, making a breastplate out of gold would take forever, which is ludicrous.

-The Souljourner

 

[Anubis]

Mithral and Adamantine ARE MASTERWORK ITEMS AUTOMATICALLY. This is stated SOMEWHERE in the DMG and is ALSO confirmed by ALL the creators of these rules. You can't make a "normal" Mithral or Adamantine item.

 

[Shin Okada]

One fact to consider?

There are several Adamantine/Mithral items in specific weapons/armor list of the DMG. Looking their costs, I found some of the items are paying masterwork costs (+300 gp for weapons, 150 gp for armor) and some others are not. So it seems that there are masterwork adamantine/mithral items and non-masterwork adamantine/mithral ones.

 

[hammymchamham]

Mithral and Adamantine ARE MASTERWORK ITEMS AUTOMATICALLY. This is stated SOMEWHERE in the DMG

page please

 

[Kyramus]

page 242 dmg


the lines state that they are treated as masterwork items with regards to creation, but the masterwork does not affect enhancement bonus or armor check penalties of the armor.

so following that logic that the materials already give bonuses higher than masterwork, the items are mastwerwork for purposes of enchanting.

The metals are harder to craft with hence the time frame of masterwork is added to the item. They are treated as masterwork items if you are to enchant the item.

In short, items made from A or M take longer to create, and when done it will always be treated as masterwork, though the masterwork quality for + to hit is not applied to weapons nor does it apply to the armor checks. These items can be enchanted as normal but their natural material bonuses to hit and damage do not stack with the enchantment.

finally if you think about it, if you are going to be working with A or M, instead of iron, you'll be more careful with the process of crafting the item. God knows how much this costs and the person who made you craft the weapon or armor might kick your a** if you don't do it right.

 

[hammymchamham]

page 242 dmg


the lines state that they are treated as masterwork items with regards to creation,

Yes, creation time....

but the masterwork does not affect enhancement bonus or armor check penalties of the armor.

Its not masterwork. Only with regards to creation time.

so following that logic that the materials already give bonuses higher than masterwork, the items are mastwerwork for purposes of enchanting.

The metals are harder to craft with hence the time frame of masterwork is added to the item.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, the time frame of making a masterwork item out of iron is the same as making it out of A or M

They are treated as masterwork items if you are to enchant the item.

I don't see anywhere where it says they are masterwork.

Take Elven Chain. Its made of mithral which lesses its armor check penalty by 3. Its cost is mithral medium armor (4000) plus 150 for chain mail. 4150.

Now the adamantine shield is made of adamantine, which does not affect armor check penalties. An adamantine sheild is a sheild (2000) plus a large metal shield (20) is 2020. The listed price is 2170. Where does the other 150 come? From being a masterwork adamantine shield, which also means it has a armor check penalty of 1 less than a regular adamantine shield.

Unless I missed something that says you have to add the costs of masterwork to weapons and armor made of A or M, which would mean Elven chain would have to cost more. As we see, the costs of the adamantine shield show they stack. Otherwise, where does that extra 150 I attribute to the masterwork portion come from, and whats the point?

 

[Kyramus]

cost analysis doesn't show everything accurately. but it does show in the case of the A shield that it is considered and is a masterwork item.

I'd guess that the bonuses uses the same as everything else, whichever has the highest bonuses apply.

ie an Adamantite longsword is a longsword +2. if enchanted to be a +1 longsword, it's pointless as the +2 of the material takes precidence since it's a higher bonus. but if enchanted to +5, the +5 is used. the +2 from it's material doesn't stack with the enhancement bonus of +5 since the material bonus is an enhancement bonus.

After re-reading the paragraphs a few times, I think this is definitely one of the areas that needs revision in 3.5. A clear and precise sentence structure to lessen the confusion.

 

[Kryndal Levik]

Here's a link regarding mithril masterwork on Monte's boards- essentially the same discussion:

http://pub58.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm3.showMessage?topicID=269.topic