QOTD: Native Outsider become Undead?

[RuminDange]

Question of the day: Can a Native Outsider such as an Assimar, Tiefling, Gensai or even a 20th level Monk, become undead through the spawn ability of undead?

Had this come up in game a today when the groups Ice Gensai was struck down by shadows and got to wondering if he would rise as a shadow or not. Luckily, game ended before I had to decide. I know from Savage Species that Undead and Outsiders are at the top of the creature types and one cannot normally become the other, but since this deals with a Native Outsider, I got to thinking.

Ideas?

RD

 

[Cabral]

Yes unless otherwise stated. In the case of templates, this usually pretty overt.

In the case of Shadows, check the Creature Entry.

Under Create Spawn: "Any humanoid struck down"

So in this case, no. He would not rise again.

By comparison, if a Mohrg had killed him, he'd be a zombie. ("a creature struck down...")

 

[Shin Okada]

Native or not, an Outsider can be an undead. At least, there seems to be no specific rule to prevent it. And Libris Mortis shows some actual examples (Lichfiend, Hound Archon Zombie, Vrock Zombie, etc.)

 

[Starglim]

Yes unless otherwise stated. In the case of templates, this usually pretty overt.

In the case of Shadows, check the Creature Entry.

Under Create Spawn: "Any humanoid struck down"

So in this case, no. He would not rise again.

By comparison, if a Mohrg had killed him, he'd be a zombie. ("a creature struck down...")

What Cabral said.

As a general statement, when a non-native outsider dies, no immortal soul departs from its body - the creature is merely, completely dead. This is why it can't be raised or resurrected in the normal way since those magics depend on returning the soul to the body. However the outsider's life force can be revived by magic (such as limited wish) so there's no reason why it couldn't be revived by foul necromantic forces instead. Its body could be inhabited by another animating force (such as animate dead). In sum, nothing in the outsider type itself prevents an outsider from becoming undead, though specific effects might not work on outsiders, as specified in the description of the effect.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think that if the creature was ever alive in the material sense of the word, then it can become an undead, otherwise it should not happen. For instance, if the creature was an outsider in the original sense (a being of the afterlife, an immortal), then no.

But every DM is free to have ghost devils and zombie angels, if it makes sense to him. After all, the "outsider" type has nowayas little left to do with what I said above.

 

[Starglim]

I think that if the creature was ever alive in the material sense of the word, then it can become an undead, otherwise it should not happen. For instance, if the creature was an outsider in the original sense (a being of the afterlife, an immortal), then no.

But every DM is free to have ghost devils and zombie angels, if it makes sense to him. After all, the "outsider" type has nowayas little left to do with what I said above.

Good point. Now that I think about it, it's arguable that an outsider can't become an incorporeal undead, such as a ghost, except for types that result specifically from the body being completely destroyed.

To put it another way, an outsider can't have its spirit depart from its body, because its body is spiritual.

 

[Cabral]

Good point. Now that I think about it, it's arguable that an outsider can't become an incorporeal undead, such as a ghost, except for types that result specifically from the body being completely destroyed.

To put it another way, an outsider can't have its spirit depart from its body, because its body is spiritual.

Therefore it becomes a ghost with no earthly remains; the corpse becomes the ghost.

 

[RuminDange]

Thanks for all the feedback. I was under the impression that an outsider could not become undead without changing the rules of adding templates....something I read in Savage Species I think, I'll have to look a the shadow description and/or umbral template a little closer and decide from there.
Since I haven't had much time to read Libris Mortis cover to cover and only glanced at the book a few times since I got it, I hadn't seen the samples of undead outsiders in there, so now things can get really interesting IMC. The players have already hated the Mind Flayer Lich, now they might just really hate a balor one.

The player of the gensai is probably not going to be happy that he will rise as a shadow but at least he will not be alone.

RD

 

[lunasmeow]

Good point. Now that I think about it, it's arguable that an outsider can't become an incorporeal undead, such as a ghost, except for types that result specifically from the body being completely destroyed.

To put it another way, an outsider can't have its spirit depart from its body, because its body is spiritual.

Actually using the "body becomes completely destroyed" rule to make them a ghost makes no sense at all, since the body and souls of Outsiders are *one*. If the body of an Outsider is completely destroyed, so is it's soul.

Basically, since the only way for an Outsiders life energy to be restored is VIA wish or miracle type spells, that should probably be the only way to raise it as an undead, an evil wish/miracle.

Well, in the exception of the "dead" Outsider becoming possessed. However in this case the possessor would have to fight for control of the body? Since the soul (though dead) is one with the body, it would try to resist? Maybe? But then again, if the body IS the soul, and the mind is "off" due to the soulbody being "dead" maybe it doesn't resist possession? And thus can become an undead being if the possession causes this? Or does the soul of another being entering the "body" of an outsider instead cause the body to be revived having gained new "life energy" with the winner of the battle of the souls being the new person in charge of said body?

This is coming up in my campaign soon, so any help would be appreciated.

 

[Ranes]

I was under the impression that an outsider could not become undead without changing the rules of adding templates....something I read in Savage Species I think...

You are correct. It's on p143:

Construct, Outsider, Undead: These three types reside at the top of the pyramid. Once a creature becomes an undead or a construct through the application of a templete, it cannot become something else. Once a creature stops being a native of the Material Plane, it becomes an outsider and stays one.

However, the "Breaking the Rules" sidebar on the very next page gives advice on doing just that and describes how to create a ghost barghest as an example.