Quasi-historical towns and shopping limits

[Stormonu]

Hmm. I've been trying to work on an economy that removes magic items from being purchased via money. Magic items are the largest reason the D&D fails to be a workable economy, and if you can find some other resource - that can't be transformed into money - to account for the value/sale/acquisition of magic items, it should be possible to fix the D&D economy.

Still haven't hit on the right method yet myself, but I'd sure like to hear ideas if anyone has some.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Stormonu, removing the magic item economy was one of my goals in this. As written the only items that can be purchased straight with coin are 1st and 2nd level items, and potions. In all cases you would have to be at a major trade center to do so.
You can barter/trade for other items, but in many of these cases it will be accepting a quest, providing a service, or trading items you have.

Olgar Shiverstone, I agree, but was being lazy and not wanting to rewrite the PHB equipment list. My plan is for the world to work on the Silver standard while the players can 'modernize' a bit to counting in gold pieces. Also in the actual campaign treasure parcels will very rarely contain coin of any kind... and when it does it will generally be ancient coin made from copper or silver... that more than likely are better for bartering that actual 'money'.

Chimera, I like the 40 to 1 ratio and would very much like to see a 'normalized' economy guide.. one that included such things as monthly living expenses for various society levels, taxations, guild impact... etc..
And would be willing to pay for it to, as would a number of other folks here if the Donkeyhorse threads are any indication.

So.. to recap. The recommendations so far have been:
- use Silver standard as the base of the economy
- Use viceral terms
- adjust the cost of Gems and Adventuring gear down to 'normal'
- limit coin transactions to dealings with landed nobles, guild merchants, and Houses, and Tax-gatherers. All other deal in barter within the gp limits on thier location... and landed nobles are more likely to ask for service in kind or demand a portion of any treasure found.

Ways to expand this:
- build up a 'letter of Marquis' standard for what landed nobles would be willing to risk with a group of 'adventurers'
- build up the Guild standards for interactions
- develop the find/barter mechanics

Am I still on the right track?

 

[haakon1]

Thoughts? Rotten tomatoes?

Seems reasonable to me, but I wouldn't do the buying rules as rigid rules, more as a guideline to what role-playing will flesh out.

Also, the idea of specialties in different towns/regions would be good. For example, in the real world, Italy and Germany produced much high-end plate mail in the late Middle Ages, whereas Spain was famous for swords. And obviously, you can't buy a katana even in Spain, unless the DM wants to build some weird interesting reason that you can . . .

I've always thought of the money in D&D this way:
1 sp = US $1, circa the Wild West, when $1 a day was a normal wage for a cowboy, and came in the form of a largish silver coin. It doesn't really make sense at all when you start thinking about the modern economy, as mass production v. hand crafting is a sea change.

When my players got up to 1000 gp (i.e., 10,000 sp in 3.5e which I run), I started telling them about the things they could buy with it, and that it was more than enough to retire as a wealthy man.

The other thing I think about is that gold is currently worth US $1200/ounce, and 50 gp to 1 lb, so 50 gp = $19,200, so 1 gp = $384.

Which makes a silver piece worth about $40, not far off from minimum wage in modern America, $7 * 8 hours = $56/ day.

But a dagger costing 2 gp = $750 seems crazy, or a longsword being 15 gp = $5760, but I could see maybe 1/4 of that being the "real" value, so maybe 1 gp = $96, rounded off to $100, ish? But the laborers make only $10/day?

It's at this point that I give up and just play the game as written.

 

[S'mon]

Historically, gold coins in circulation were not pure gold - I'm thinking that given the low value of a D&D gold piece, it's probably only about 25% gold, ie 6 carat, and could be less.

Using 1 gold piece = $50 works pretty well IME, as long as you're not thinking about modern mass-produced factory goods. I use 1 sp = the day wage of an unskilled subsistence labourer, which at $5 looks about right, recognising that a medieval economy is more like a modern developing nation than like the USA or Europe. Semi-skilled like soldiers or cowboys get double, 2 sp/$10. Most magic items are like high tech goods in a developing-nation economy.

Edit: I think 4e's platemail = 50 gp = $2500 dollars works much better than 3e's platemail = 600 gp = $30,000.

 

[haakon1]

I think 4e's platemail = 50 gp = $2500 dollars works much better than 3e's platemail = 600 gp = $30,000.

$30,000 doesn't sound that bad for platemail.

I remember seeing a stat that normal combat load for a US Army infantryman in Afghanistan is worth ~ $10,000-$15,000, whereas in WWII, in constant dollars, it was more like $150 -- cheap unicolor mass produced clothes, short boots with cloth uppers, stamped steel helmet, a knife, a grenade, some sulfa powder, and most expensive, an M1 rifle.

And of course, a fighter plane now runs you several mill . . .

 

[mach1.9pants]

... although you may get pieces of my old jet in your razor!

But you are right very very few knights could afford a suit of full plate, the cost of all those things are what increased the size of the squirearchy etc.

On a side note does anyone have links to any really good resources of actually prices of things over the DnD era?

 

[Orius]

If you happen to have a spare Holy Grail lying around, you just advertise it on Craig's List.

Newegg is currently well stocked with Durendal +4, but they only have a limited number of Excalibur +5, so buy now while supplies last.

Damn. Looks like they're out of Spear of Destiny +5.

 

[Celebrim]

Damn. Looks like they're out of Spear of Destiny +5.

New shipment every tuesday, doors open an 9am. What could be more exciting than that?

 

[haakon1]

- build up a 'letter of Marquis' standard for what landed nobles would be willing to risk with a group of 'adventurers'

Marquis is a noble title (one step down from a Duke).

I think you are thinking of a letter of marque, which is what makes a pirate a privateer (until he messes with the wrong ship and gets hanged anyhow).

 

[ExploderWizard]

$30,000 doesn't sound that bad for platemail.

I remember seeing a stat that normal combat load for a US Army infantryman in Afghanistan is worth ~ $10,000-$15,000, whereas in WWII, in constant dollars, it was more like $150 -- cheap unicolor mass produced clothes, short boots with cloth uppers, stamped steel helmet, a knife, a grenade, some sulfa powder, and most expensive, an M1 rifle.

And of course, a fighter plane now runs you several mill . . .

I don't think the comparison of modern mass produced goods has any meaning on D&D pricing. Unless the game world can simulate the same technology with magical production methods it's like apples and oranges.