Question about an archmage power

[Magic Rub]

In the 'Forgotten realms campaign setting' under Archmage you will find a sneaky little power that reads something like this...

Spell like ability;
This high arcana permanently uses 1 of your 5th level spell slots to master the ability.
The mage may select 1 of his/her spells and use it X times (2,4,6) per day as a spell like ability. The chosen spell will permanently take up a spell slot of it's level or higher (higher for more times per day) in addition to the 5th lvl spell slot needed to to master this high arcana. You may pick this ability multiple times (once at each archmage level) for the same spell every time or a different spell.

Of course I'm paraphrasing allot in my above description, but you get the point, I think. Now my question is this, if you were to take this high arcana multiple times would you need to expend 2 spell slots every single time in order to do it. being the 5 level to learn the high arcana, & the spell slot for the spell you intend to have as the spell like ability?

Hierophants, the clerical equivalent of the arch mage class, have this ability as a granted power. They do not need to expend 2 spell slots, just the 1 needed for the spell. I do understand the mechanics behind this for the Hierophant, so no need to go over that. Though with both Prestige classes in mind I would interpret the Archmage power as follows...

Titto, part time pimp full time magic user, is a 1st lvl bad maamajamin' Archmage who is about to level (yay titto). At his first Archmage level he took the spell like ability high arcana. He has permanently "lost" a 5th level spell slot in learning the spell like ability high arcana. He can now cast Fire ball 6 times per day due to the fact that like a moron he used up a 9th level spell slot, one that's 6 levels higher then the actual spell. Now as a second level stylish funky fly Archmage Titto intends to take another spell like ability, the 1st level spell Alarm 6 times per day using a 7th level slot permanently. (Lets just say that pimp / Archmage Titto is not to wise.) O.K. so because Titto has already learned the high arcana of taking spells permanently as spell like abilities at first level he does not need to expend yet another 5th level slot to "re-learn" some thing he already knows how to do. It would be like having to take Mastery of elements several times & use a 8th level spell slot once for every different type of element.

What say you all, am I interpreting the power correctly, confused as hell, or just not making any sense what so ever?

Thanks in advance,
Magic Rub

 

[StealthyMark]

Your interpretation of this particular Archmage ability is absolutely correct.

However, you may have overseen some facts:
1. You don't have to take this special ability.
2. You can take some useful spells instead, for example Greater Dispelling. You'd get: 2/day a stilled, silenced Greater Dispelling for the price of a 5th- and a 6th-level slot.
3. The Hierophant doesn't get the "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" ability. This makes a big difference, IMO.

 

[Magic Rub]

Your interpretation of this particular Archmage ability is absolutely correct.

However, you may have overseen some facts:
1. You don't have to take this special ability.
2. You can take some useful spells instead, for example Greater Dispelling. You'd get: 2/day a stilled, silenced Greater Dispelling for the price of a 5th- and a 6th-level slot.
3. The Hierophant doesn't get the "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" ability. This makes a big difference, IMO.

Don't worry Titto was just a silly example, no PC would take Alarm 6 times per day, or use a 9th (& a 5th) level spell slot for a 4th level spell even if it was 6 times per day. Also as I had said, I do understand that the Hierophant works the way that it does due to ballance ie) no +1 level of existing spellcasting class.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Actually, I'd disagree. The description of the spell-like ability high arcana implies that one needs to burn a 5th-level spell slot each and every time one selects this high arcana for a particular spell.

Spell-Like Ability
The archmage can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than the slot expended to learn this high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting this spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

The archmage may use an available higher level spell slot to be able to use the spell-like ability more often. Using a slot three levels higher than the chosen spell allows her to cast it four times per day, and a level six levels higher lets her cast is six times per day. For example, Hezark (Wiz15/Acm2) is a pyromaniac and never wants to be denied the ability to cast fireball, so she permanently uses a 9th-level spell slot to get fireball as a spell-like ability useable six time per day. She forfeits a 5th-lveel spell slot to master the ability.

If selected more than one time as a special ability, this can apply to the same spell or to a different spell.

Note that this ability is the only one to make reference to the idea of being "selected more than one time as a special ability." That implies that it must be selected and paid for multiple times in order to cover multiple spells, or multiple uses of the same spells.

There is also a balance concern here related to gaining more than two uses of a spell per day. If Titto could gain multiple uses of the spell-like ability high arcana without expending additional spell slots, he'd be better off expending multiple 3rd-level spell slots to gain four or six uses per day of fireball than expending a 6th- or 9th-level spell slot, respectively, to get the same. After all, what self-respecting mage wouldn't rather sacrifice 3 3rd-level spell slots than one 9th-level spell slot?

 

[Magus_Jerel]

After all, what self-respecting mage wouldn't rather sacrifice 3 3rd-level spell slots than one 9th-level spell slot?

A mage that only has an intelligence score of 18... which doesn't happen.

 

[Magic Rub]

So which is it then? Yes a 5th lvl is burnt every time, or no just the first time? I wouldn't mind hearing some more oppinions (or facts) from more folks.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

I would say that you burn the 5th level slot every time.

 

[Magic Rub]

There is also a balance concern here related to gaining more than two uses of a spell per day. If Titto could gain multiple uses of the spell-like ability high arcana without expending additional spell slots, he'd be better off expending multiple 3rd-level spell slots to gain four or six uses per day of fireball than expending a 6th- or 9th-level spell slot, respectively, to get the same. After all, what self-respecting mage wouldn't rather sacrifice 3 3rd-level spell slots than one 9th-level spell slot?

Balance?

The balance is that you have to burn "a" (one) fifth lvl spell slot to MASTER the High arcana, & then one slot of what ever level every time you'd level and pick a new spell. You can only do this thing 5 times, as there are only 5 lvls of Archmage, & you have to be at leaste 13th lvl. By your train of thought you would spend 3 - 3rd lvl slots & 3 - 5th lvl slots for 6 - 3rd lvl spells THAT CAN'T BE CHANGED EVER. Were is the balance in that, why not just keep the open slots & pick what ever you want? You've made the power useless. Who would take it then?

 

[StealthyMark]

You have to sacrifice a 5-th level slot *every time* you choose this ability. No chance to misinterpret this.

If used correctly, this High Arcana is very powerful. Remember, a spell-like ability is not a spell, thus has no verbal or somatic components, can be used while held and cannot be counterspelled. You can use it while subject to Silence or while grappled. Just select the spell careful.

Usually, this ability (and the 5-th level spell slot) is best spent on higher level spells, like Timestop, Greater Dispelling, Teleport without Error... You could use a silent, stilled, uncounterable version of the spell twice for the price of a x-th and a 5-th level spell slot. Very potent, in my book.

The balance is that you have to burn "a" (one) fifth lvl spell slot to MASTER the High arcana, & then one slot of what ever level every time you'd level and pick a new spell. You can only do this thing 5 times, as there are only 5 lvls of Archmage, & you have to be at leaste 13th lvl. By your train of thought you would spend 3 - 3rd lvl slots & 3 - 5th lvl slots for 6 - 3rd lvl spells THAT CAN'T BE CHANGED EVER. Were is the balance in that, why not just keep the open slots & pick what ever you want? You've made the power useless. Who would take it then?

It is easy to find very weak scenarions for every ability, like a 12-th level figher selecting Toughness as feat.

 

[Tar-Edhel]

You have to sacrifice a 5-th level slot *every time* you choose this ability. No chance to misinterpret this.

That is how I understood it as well. From the FRCS p.42:

Spell-like ability: The archmage can use one of her arcane spell slots (...) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. (...) This ability costs one 5th-level slot to master.

The order in which those conditions are stated clearly indicates that it costs a 5th level slot each time you turn one spell into a spell like ability.