Question about Death saving throws after combat

[Drakkengi]

We had an interesting session last night that left us all a little stumped. I DM a group with two sets of characters that live in the same world. Last night we finished up a fight with the first group that ended with all the PC's being unconcious and dying but right after the last PC went down the only surviving enemy also died due to losing temporary hp's that went away at the end of the combat.

So the question is did the players still need to make death saving throws to try and stabilize since no one was around to heal them and they all went down before the last enemy died or would they automatically stabilize when the enemy died and just wake up 8 hours later?

After that we moved into the second group's adventure and the first encounter ended similarly. They fought a group of draconians and when the last one was killed (a Kapak) he did his acid deathburst which did enough damage to knock everyone still up unconcious except for one player. However since the Kapak's deathburst deals 5 damage to anyone who starts their turn in the burst area or moves into it the last player would have gone down as soon as he activated.

My question for this one is would the 5 damage aura from the deathburst end as soon as the last draconian died since combat was over thereby allowing the last standing PC to stay concious and heal up his allies or would they be in the same situation as the first group?

Hope this all makes sense.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Um... huh? Temp hp are always lost first - if the monster had some temp hp then it must have had real hp underneath that. Also if the monster was still standing when the PC went unconscious, combat wasn't over if it wanted to coup de grace any or all of the PCs or even bandage them.

So whether that's a tpk or party survival depends on fiat and the monster's choice.

As for the aura, the aura ended when the monster died - unless an exception was specifically stated. I'd need to see the exact text of the power.

 

[TheWriterFantastic™]

In the first scenario, if the enemy somehow managed to retain only temp hp and didn't have any regular hp, he should have been out earlier anyway. In that case, one of the party members would probably have still been standing and could start stabilizing the rest of the group. Once combat's over, if there's no activity, presumably a short rest would start if they aren't in any immediate danger, so players should be able to spend their healing surges as they see fit. If all players are out and making death saves still, I'd be on the fence about the rest, because there's still some possibility of dying. It really depends on how lenient the DM is. In the spirit of a fair and fun game, I'd rule they get the rest, or rule it was tpko instead of tpk. RAW, they might be on their way to a tediously repetitive roll to the death.

 

[Dausuul]

We had an interesting session last night that left us all a little stumped. I DM a group with two sets of characters that live in the same world. Last night we finished up a fight with the first group that ended with all the PC's being unconcious and dying but right after the last PC went down the only surviving enemy also died due to losing temporary hp's that went away at the end of the combat.

So the question is did the players still need to make death saving throws to try and stabilize since no one was around to heal them and they all went down before the last enemy died or would they automatically stabilize when the enemy died and just wake up 8 hours later?

Living monsters don't exude a magical aura that causes otherwise stable people to expire. As far as I'm concerned, if somebody is still making death saves, the encounter ain't over. You may have killed all the monsters but still have to scramble to save your dying friend.

In the situation you describe, the players keep rolling till a) somebody gets a natural 20, wakes up, and stabilizes the rest of the group, or b) everyone dies.

Also note that the enemy should have been unconscious to begin with--if your real hit points are at zero or less, you're down, period. Temp hit points aren't really hit points, they're more like energy shields. They'll soak up damage from outside attacks, but if your warp core is already offline, pumping up your shields doesn't help you.

After that we moved into the second group's adventure and the first encounter ended similarly. They fought a group of draconians and when the last one was killed (a Kapak) he did his acid deathburst which did enough damage to knock everyone still up unconcious except for one player. However since the Kapak's deathburst deals 5 damage to anyone who starts their turn in the burst area or moves into it the last player would have gone down as soon as he activated.

My question for this one is would the 5 damage aura from the deathburst end as soon as the last draconian died since combat was over thereby allowing the last standing PC to stay concious and heal up his allies or would they be in the same situation as the first group?

Same situation as the first group. Combat ends when the situation stabilizes and it's no longer important to track things round-by-round. The death of all monsters is not necessarily synonymous with the end of combat.

As for the aura, the aura ended when the monster died - unless an exception was specifically stated. I'd need to see the exact text of the power.

According to the OP, the aura was from a kapak draconian's death burst. The monster was already dead when it appeared.

 

[tuxgeo]

. . . Combat ends when the situation stabilizes and it's no longer important to track things round-by-round. The death of all monsters is not necessarily synonymous with the end of combat.

. . .

This reminds me of something I heard Chris Perkins do in one of the Penny Arcade podcasts: a member of Acquisitions, Incorporated was down, and the other members finished killing the last monster; but Chris said, "You're still in Initiative," meaning that the down PC had to keep making death saving throws each round until either (a) a fellow PC stabilized him, or (b) he rolled a natural 20 and just "got better," or (c) he died. I think Omin Dran went over and rolled a Heal check -- either to do First Aid to activate Second Wind (DC 10) or else to Stabilize the Dying (DC 15?) -- made it, and that act ended the encounter.

 

[Dausuul]

This reminds me of something I heard Chris Perkins do in one of the Penny Arcade podcasts: a member of Acquisitions, Incorporated was down, and the other members finished killing the last monster; but Chris said, "You're still in Initiative," meaning that the down PC had to keep making death saving throws each round until either (a) a fellow PC stabilized him, or (b) he rolled a natural 20 and just "got better," or (c) he died. I think Omin Dran went over and rolled a Heal check -- either to do First Aid to activate Second Wind (DC 10) or else to Stabilize the Dying (DC 15?) -- made it, and that act ended the encounter.

Pretty much. I had something like this last night; three banshees (homebrewed, the banshees in the Monster Manual are weaksauce) against the PCs. They had a "banshee wail" encounter power that caused victims to become weakened (save ends), with a failed save reducing the target to zero hit points instantly.

The last banshee used her wail right before she was dropped, leaving most of the PCs with the "weakened (save ends)" effect. There was also a confusion power affecting several people. I kept the party in initiative order until it got to the warlord's turn. Once the warlord resisted the confusion effect, so he could use his healing abilities, and then made his save against the banshee wail, I declared the encounter over; at that point it was clear that everybody was going to pull through, and there weren't any more fights that day.

If the party had been in a dungeon with more combats to come, I probably would have kept going until everyone had shaken off the effect, since being dropped from full hit points to zero costs 3-4 healing surges to recover from. Likewise, if the warlord had gone down, I would have kept going to see if anyone died before they could be stabilized.

 

[OnlineDM]

They had a "banshee wail" encounter power that caused victims to become weakened (save ends), with a failed save reducing the target to zero hit points instantly.

I know this is off topic, but... wow! That sounds like a brutal ability. One failed save, and bam, you're unconscious? Man, people who complain about daze/stun (save ends) should just shut the heck up!

Seriously, I'm guessing you run an intentionally hard core game. Me, I wouldn't use that kind of ability as a DM and I'd be pretty bummed to face it as a player. But if the table wants hard core, this will do it!

 

[Dausuul]

I know this is off topic, but... wow! That sounds like a brutal ability. One failed save, and bam, you're unconscious? Man, people who complain about daze/stun (save ends) should just shut the heck up!

Seriously, I'm guessing you run an intentionally hard core game. Me, I wouldn't use that kind of ability as a DM and I'd be pretty bummed to face it as a player. But if the table wants hard core, this will do it!

It's not as bad as you make it out to be. You get a round's worth of warning, which helps a lot; you can use a granted saving throw to end the weakness early ("first failed save" effects only trigger on your regular end-of-turn save), and since you don't go down until the end of your turn, the other PCs can hit you with a heal effect before your next turn starts. You'll be prone and down a lot of hit points, but you're unlikely to lose your standard action unless it's late in the fight and heals are running low.

And banshees are supposed to be nasty customers. A banshee wail is the sort of thing that in previous editions would have been save-or-die, something more sudden and vicious than ordinary damage. I thought this captured the flavor of save-or-die pretty well while avoiding the arbitrary "Oops, you rolled a 1, make a new character."

As the party has advanced into paragon tier, I'm finding it's vitally important to give my monsters unexpected, shocking abilities--things that change the terrain and force the players to re-evaluate their situation. Otherwise the fights are boring and predictable; the players have done it so many times already.

 

[OnlineDM]

Ah, I see - I didn't realize it was Paragon adventuring. I only have experience with Heroic tier so far, and it makes sense that things get nastier at Paragon.

I was mentally comparing this to a medusa that I ran in a Living Forgotten Realms adventure recently. Her attack slows on a hit (save ends). The first failed save immobilizes. The second failed save petrifies. Granted, dropping to 0 hp is nowhere near as bad as being petrified, but I was thinking that two failed saves would be reasonable to wreck a PC, but not one. At Paragon, perhaps that's fair.

I do think you're pretty hardcore, though, which is cool. I haven't played earlier editions, but I know that "save or die" effects definitely existed before. I tend to think of 4e as intentionally getting AWAY from that sort of thing, and your banshee walks the line between the two mind sets.

 

[phloog]

Pardon my intrusion, but I'm planning on running 4e once to give it a shot, and there's a question that's sort of on topic here.

A bunch of powers grant a nearby ally or a target a saving throw, usually out of the normal sequence - - so the cleric does something and a nearby friend gets to make a save even though it isn't their turn.

My question is - is this an 'extra' or 'free' saving throw, or does it count in terms of - - -most importantly - - -death.

You get three failed saves before you die...if you've missed two already, could your clerics holy blessed power KILL you by forcing a new save that you fail? Or are these kind of granted saves 'extra' - - another chance to make the save without the risks?

In the second interpretation it makes these granted saves VERY powerful, but if it's the first interpretation and they actually count toward death it leads to some weird storyline things - - "I call upon my Holy Power of Goodness to kill you a few seconds early!!!"