Question about Death saving throws after combat

[Nebten]

This is a commonly asked question and the answer is that you cannot worsen your condition with these "extra/free" saving throws.

 

[Dausuul]

Pardon my intrusion, but I'm planning on running 4e once to give it a shot, and there's a question that's sort of on topic here.

A bunch of powers grant a nearby ally or a target a saving throw, usually out of the normal sequence - - so the cleric does something and a nearby friend gets to make a save even though it isn't their turn.

My question is - is this an 'extra' or 'free' saving throw, or does it count in terms of - - -most importantly - - -death.

You get three failed saves before you die...if you've missed two already, could your clerics holy blessed power KILL you by forcing a new save that you fail? Or are these kind of granted saves 'extra' - - another chance to make the save without the risks?

In the second interpretation it makes these granted saves VERY powerful, but if it's the first interpretation and they actually count toward death it leads to some weird storyline things - - "I call upon my Holy Power of Goodness to kill you a few seconds early!!!"

Nebten has it right. PHB2, p. 219:

The new effect, specified in a "First Failed Saving Throw" or "Second Failed Saving Throw" entry, takes effect after the target fails a saving throw against the previous effect at the end of the target's turn. The effect doesn't change if the creature fails a saving throw against it at a time other than the end of its turn.

(Emphasis mine.) You can also find it in the Rules Compendium, p. 98.

 

[Aegeri]

Pretty much. I had something like this last night; three banshees (homebrewed, the banshees in the Monster Manual are weaksauce) against the PCs. They had a "banshee wail" encounter power that caused victims to become weakened (save ends), with a failed save reducing the target to zero hit points instantly.

For those curious, the reworked Beholder in Monster Vault can kill a PC on 3 failed saves with one of its eye rays. Inflicting the "Dead" condition is definitely the definition of "worsen". So it's not out of the question for monsters to kill on failed saves - usually it is three however and not one save and then zero HP (which I have to remind myself is not the same as dead). The earliest beholder that does this is level 9. Bear in mind this is "Dead dead", not "0 HP" but outright honest to god death. As if beholders weren't terrifying enough.

In reference to the OP, unless something might actually kill a PC I don't keep a combat going. So the only time I will continue to keep a combat going when all monsters are dead is when a PC is currently dying and making death saves. I do not end the combat until they are stabilized.

 

[ArcaneSpringboard]

For those curious, the reworked Beholder in Monster Vault can kill a PC on 3 failed saves with one of its eye rays. Inflicting the "Dead" condition is definitely the definition of "worsen". So it's not out of the question for monsters to kill on failed saves - usually it is three however and not one save and then zero HP (which I have to remind myself is not the same as dead). The earliest beholder that does this is level 9. Bear in mind this is "Dead dead", not "0 HP" but outright honest to god death. As if beholders weren't terrifying enough.

In reference to the OP, unless something might actually kill a PC I don't keep a combat going. So the only time I will continue to keep a combat going when all monsters are dead is when a PC is currently dying and making death saves. I do not end the combat until they are stabilized.

Actually, Beholders aren't all that nasty.

The problem is that their powers don't do enough damage (certainly lower than the MM3 numbers, even with the new MV stats). The second is that Beholders cannot focus fire. They only get two attacks on their turn, and they have to be on the same creature.

They do get extra attacks on other people's turns, but again, that's not focussing fire.

I ran a Beholder a couple of weeks ago and only barely managed to bloody one character.

 

[Joshua Randall]

Regarding the original question --

To be pedantic, if someone is knocked unconscious then even without healing he automatically restores to 1 hp after a short rest. (So, 5 min after the encounter ends.)

Only if someone is dying (and making death saves) could he possibly "bleed out" after the encounter ends.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

My question for this one is would the 5 damage aura from the deathburst end as soon as the last draconian died since combat was over thereby allowing the last standing PC to stay concious and heal up his allies or would they be in the same situation as the first group?

As for the aura, the aura ended when the monster died - unless an exception was specifically stated. I'd need to see the exact text of the power.

To be more specific, the deathburth power ("Acid Pool") actually creates a zone that lasts until the end of the encounter, it's not an aura. That's important because if that power really was an aura it would create some paradox because a creature’s auras end immediately when it falls unconscious or dies.

Although knowing that it's a zone that lasts until the end of the encounter still requires deciding when the encounter is done. The way we play, as long as people are still in danger from combat related stuff, the encounter isn't over. This includes a character who is dying, a character who has a condition, if there's an active trap that still could affect the characters, or if there are environmental hazards that could still affect the characters.

 

[Riastlin]

Aye, if a PC is in danger (i.e. dying or taking ongoing damage or some other save ends effect that could potentially make him dying) I keep combat going in initiative. Usually, as long as somebody is up, this is a fairly moot point as the check to stabilize isn't all that difficult after the first few levels (though it could be tricky if only one person is up).

This did lead to one of the best moments in a long time in one of my campaigns. Party of five managed to trigger two encounters at once (including one that consisted of wraiths -- Scales of War for those interested). Needless to say, things went badly for the party. Two PCs died from ongoing (i.e. negative bloodied), two more were unconscious and the fifth fled through a portal. One of the unconscious PCs failed his third death save, leaving only the warlock (at two strikes) left. Next roll . . . nat 20. He then crawled to the portal and made his way out undetected (making an excellent stealth check to avoid notice of the wraiths in the other room). Was pretty awesome as everyone cheered the 20.