Question about Gestalt campaign and racial levels

[cignus_pfaccari]

Care to explain why?

That is a good question. There's nothing that says such, especially since the monster classes would more than likely be treated as a regular class.

Brad

 

[Pax]

Care to explain why?

Because the rules (not just the ones in UA) say so, is why.

Level adjustment is added to your "actual level" to get your "effective level". And Savage Species aside, racial hit dice are not levels per se (although they count towards, again, effective character level in terms of XP needed to advance).

If you make a 5th level character (5 HD) who is a Half-Dragon (Level Adjustment +3), that is the same as an 8th level character (8HD). That's the basic concept of Level Adjustment, and nothing in UA's three-and-a-half-page treatment of Gestalt rules suggest that that concept is at all changed.

So it doesn't matter if the two characters are Gestalt, or Standard. The half-dragonmay be a Gestalt Fighter(5)-Sorceror(5), or she might be a single-class Barbarian(5) ... it doesn't matter. His Effective Character Level is still "hit dice plus level adjustment" - in this case 5 HD, plus a level adjustment of 3, to toal 8.

...

The monster HD are potentially arguable - though as I said, racial hit dice are racial hit dice, and not class levels; gestalt characters combine the features of two classes per level. Since a racial hit die is not a "class", implicitly, it's not eligible for a Gestalt setup that combines two "classes".

The thing to keep in mindis, unless yoru campaignis specificallyusing Savage Species rules, there is no such thing as "a monster class". There are base classes, prestige classes, and racial hit dice. Gestalting allows you to combine any two classes (no more than oneof which may be a prestige class), but doesn't specify that Racial Hit Dice can be combined with anything in such a manner.

Now, personally ... I don't have a problem gestalting racial HT with a single other class, I simply don't think that the rules intended to allow for such. Though it never got started properly, in the one Gestalt-rules arena I tried to get going, I did allow racial hit dice to be treated like levels in a class for gestalt purposes.

However, I would absolutely never allow someone to "gestalt their level adjustment" - LA is all about hit dice; no 8th-level character should have a +3 LA and still have 8 hit dice, period - not even if he's "only" a sorceror(8)-Fighter(5). That's just not how Level Adjustment works - nor should it be.

 

[Pax]

For instance, say you want to build a Minotaur/Fighter as your gestalt character, with Minotaur racial levels as one half and fighter levels as the other half. The Minotaur gets 6 HD with a +2 LA. How do you assign the HD/LA as the character progresses?

To expound upon this topic: Gestalt or no, you'e making (for example) a 8th-level character. Your chosen race (Minotaur) has a Level Adjustmentof +2 - so you get to have a total of 6HD.

Thus, assumign your GM allows racial hit dice to be "takenin gestalt", IOW combined with a single class ... your level-advancement "chart" (if you will) would look something like this:

Level 1, ECL 3
... class 1 = minotaur racial hit die
... class 2 = Fighter
Level 2, ECL 4
... class 1 = minotaur racial hit die
... class 2 = Fighter
Level 3, ECL 5
... class 1 = minotaur racial hit die
... class 2 = Fighter
Level 4, ECL 6
... class 1 = minotaur racial hit die
... class 2 = Fighter
Level 5, ECL 7
... class 1 = minotaur racial hit die
... class 2 = Fighter
Level 6, ECL 8
... class 1 = minotaur racial hit die
... class 2 = Fighter

Thus, you are essentially a Minotaur with all the features (and HP - d10 is better than your racial d8!) of a fighter(6) as well.

Your seventh level (and also seventh HD, and a total of ECL 9) can be Fighter, and any one other class - like maybe a prestige class. Or maybe a level of Rogue, for the sneak attack. Or whatever.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I definitely think racial levels should be allowed
However, my question would be what to do with any level adjustments...

We do so in our campaign: We already have a Mindflayer (And later Telepath/Psychic Warrior), and now there will be a Succubus (later Rogue)/Soulknive (Later 1 Level Nomad and then Elocater).

What we do: The HD are counted as levels (so you get 1 Level Mindflayer and another as Psychic Warrior), but when you increase the Level adjustment, you don't get a HD at all. But, since you miss out in two classes (or rather a monster HD and a class, but a monster HD can be substantial - outsiders get full BAB, 3 good saves and 8 + Skill Points!), we halve the Level Adjustment (rounded up). So the Mindflayer is 8 HD plus GLA +4, making it a 12-Level Gestalt Monster Class 8but you only get 8 levels of your second class).

 

[Hoog]

Because the rules (not just the ones in UA) say so, is why.

Level adjustment is added to your "actual level" to get your "effective level". And Savage Species aside, racial hit dice are not levels per se (although they count towards, again, effective character level in terms of XP needed to advance).

If you make a 5th level character (5 HD) who is a Half-Dragon (Level Adjustment +3), that is the same as an 8th level character (8HD). That's the basic concept of Level Adjustment, and nothing in UA's three-and-a-half-page treatment of Gestalt rules suggest that that concept is at all changed.

So it doesn't matter if the two characters are Gestalt, or Standard. The half-dragonmay be a Gestalt Fighter(5)-Sorceror(5), or she might be a single-class Barbarian(5) ... it doesn't matter. His Effective Character Level is still "hit dice plus level adjustment" - in this case 5 HD, plus a level adjustment of 3, to toal 8.

...

The monster HD are potentially arguable - though as I said, racial hit dice are racial hit dice, and not class levels; gestalt characters combine the features of two classes per level. Since a racial hit die is not a "class", implicitly, it's not eligible for a Gestalt setup that combines two "classes".

The thing to keep in mindis, unless yoru campaignis specificallyusing Savage Species rules, there is no such thing as "a monster class". There are base classes, prestige classes, and racial hit dice. Gestalting allows you to combine any two classes (no more than oneof which may be a prestige class), but doesn't specify that Racial Hit Dice can be combined with anything in such a manner.

Now, personally ... I don't have a problem gestalting racial HT with a single other class, I simply don't think that the rules intended to allow for such. Though it never got started properly, in the one Gestalt-rules arena I tried to get going, I did allow racial hit dice to be treated like levels in a class for gestalt purposes.

However, I would absolutely never allow someone to "gestalt their level adjustment" - LA is all about hit dice; no 8th-level character should have a +3 LA and still have 8 hit dice, period - not even if he's "only" a sorceror(8)-Fighter(5). That's just not how Level Adjustment works - nor should it be.

I think that is why they came up with template classes now to take you up to the level adjustment of those clases. This is the link there is a whole series of articles on different types of creatures with level adjustment.
Transitional Classes

 

[Pax]

And none of those template classes give hit dice.

The purpose of those classes is to allow you toplay a half-dragon (eventually), evenif your GM starts the game at 1st level, and doesn't use any ECL-balancing optional rules. IOw, to play a half-dragon when the level adjustment would otherwise render that choice not possible.

Level Adjustment is still about hit dice. Those "Transitional Classes" are to progress form one level-adjusted race (i.e. Aasimar) to some other level-adjusted race (i.e. Half-Celestial). You slowly accumulate bits and pieces of the benefits of said template/race, while accumulating the Level Adjustment to pay for them.

They're still not gestalt-able. Levels of a "transition class" still give no BAB, Base Saves, nor Hit Dice. There isn't even a "+0" listed for the BAB and saves ...!

And in fact, the first article in the series you've pointed me to upholds my argument, and not yours: bullet #8, under "General Rules for Template Classes", reads:

Each level in a template class increases the character's level adjustment by +1, just as would a level of any other character class.

While the comment on the website itself is a bit badly worded (classes don't up your level adjustment at all), the intent of the statement is clear: each "level" of a template class is actually another +1 increase to yoru existing Level Adjustment. Hence, you would generally gain no hit dice from such a "level".

Further, the very last bullet in that same section of the first article reads:

Unlike standard character classes (and the "monster classes" from Savage Species), most template classes do not increase Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, or skill points with level. They also do not affect when a character acquires feats, since feat acquisition is based on HD, not ECL. However, some of these aspects of the character can be affected indirectly by alterations in Hit Die type, ability score changes, special attacks or qualities, bonus feats, and so on.

Again; Level Adjustment is allabout hit dice. If you don't gaina HD, you shouldn't be able to gestalt that level with a class, period.

On the off chance of a progression that went "yes hit die, no hit die, yes hit die, no hit die, yes hit die" ... I'd say that you would get "yes gestalt, no gestalt, yes gestalt, no gestalt, yes gestalt" as an option.

But anything that increases ECL without a concurrent increase in Hit Dice, should never be allowed in Gestalt with any class or other progression. Period.

 

[rangerjohn]

What I want to know is, why several people have put so much effort into at best a very sub-par option? From what is being said here, there is no campaign in which a LA race is viable.

 

[JoAT]

What I want to know is, why several people have put so much effort into at best a very sub-par option? From what is being said here, there is no campaign in which a LA race is viable.

Especially when the substandard option is made all the more substandard by the opinions presented. Personally, I try to take the basic progression of the template or LA ridden thing, and pair it up with some apporpriate hit dice - if a template, or an LA race with only one hit die, I use the appropriate Racial Paragon as the gestalted hit dice - otherwise, I generally attempt to use the race's own hit dice, perhaps increaseing or decreaseing slightly to make for a balanced fit. Of course, when done like this, the creatrue in question has no option of gestalting something else onto itself - it has it's hi dice and LA to take care of, and that's it. Actually, I think I have a couple of Gestalted races around here somewhere...

Half-Dragon Gestlat Racial Class

Hit Dice: d12

Skills:
Concentration (Con), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis) and Spot (Wis).

In addition, each Half Dragon gains the following class skills based on it's parent dragon type:

Black:Hide (Dex), Move Silently (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Blue:Bluff (Cha), Hide (Dex), and Spellcraft (Int).
Brass:Bluff (Cha), Gather Information (Cha), and Survival (Wis).
Bronze:Disguise (Cha), Survival (Wis), and swim (Str).
Copper:Bluff (Cha), Hide (Dex), and Jump (Str).
Gold:Disguise (Cha), Heal (Wis) and Swim (Str).
Green:Bluff (Cha), Hide (Dex), and Move Silently (Dex).
Red:Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), and Jump (Str).
Silver:Bluff (cha), Jump (Str), and Perform (Cha).
White:Hide (Dex), Move Silently (Dex), and Swim (Str).

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier.

[b]Table: The Half-Dragon Gestalt Racial Class
           Fort Ref  Will
Level  BAB Save Save Save  Special
1st    +1  +2   +0   +2    Str +2, Int +2, resistance (lesser),
                           Sorcerous blood, natural armor +2,
                           darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
2nd    +2  +3   +0   +3    Str +2, Con +2, resistance (greater),
                           2 claws, bite, natural armor +2,
                           breath weapon 3d8, immunities (lesser) 
3rd    +3  +3   +1   +3    Str +4, Cha +2, immunities (greater),
                           wings, natural armor +1, breath weapon
                           6d8 3/day, dragon type

Class features:

All of the following are class features of the half-dragon gestalt racial class.

Weapons and Armor Proficiency: Half Dragons gain no proficiency with any weapons or armor.

Ability Score Changes: The indicated ability score increases or decreases by the amount noted.

Resistances (Ex): A half-dragon has energy resistance 10 to one type of energy. The specific type is determined by the dragon kind that provided the benefits of the template, according to the following table.

[b]Dragon     Energy Type
Variety    Resisted [/b]
Black      Acid 
Blue       Electricity 
Brass      Fire 
Bronze     Electricity 
Copper     Acid 
Gold       Fire 
Green      Acid 
Red        Fire 
Silver     Cold 
White      Cold

At 2nd level, this resistance increases to 20. At 3rd level, the half-dragon becomes completely immune to the indicated energy type (see Immunities, below).

Sorcerous blood (Ex): A character's half dragon levels stack with sorcerer levels for purposes of determining the caster level of arcane spells granted through sorcerer levels.

Natural Armor Improvements: At every level of the prestige class, the half-dragon's natural armor bonus increases by the indicated amount. A character that does not normally have a natural armor bonus (such as a human) is considered to have an initial natural armor bonus of +0 for the purpose of this ability. Thus, a human's natural armor bonus would increase to +2 at 1st level, to +4 at 2nd level, and finally to +5 at 3rd level.

Darkvision (Ex): At 1st level the half-dragon gains darkvision to a 60-foot range.

Low-Light Vision (Ex): At 1st level, the half-dragon gains low-light vision.

Claws: At 2nd level, the half-dragon gains two claw attacks if she didn't already have them. For the base damage of the half-dragon's claw attacks, use the appropriate value from the table below if the base creature did not previously have claw attacks. If she did, use either the value from the table or the base creature's claw damage, whichever is better. The half-dragon's claws are natural attacks.

Bite: At 2nd level, the half-dragon gains a bite attack if she didn't already have one. For the base damage of the half-dragon's bite attack, use the appropriate value from the table below if the base creature did not previously have a bite attack. If she did, use either the value from the table or the base creature's bite damage, whichever is better. The half-dragon's bite is a natural attack.

Size         Bite     Claw
             Damage   Damage
Fine         1        -- 
Diminutive   1d2      1 
Tiny         1d3      1d2 
Small        1d4      1d3 
Medium       1d6      1d4 
Large        1d8      1d6 
Huge         2d6      1d8 
Gargantuan   3d6      2d6 
Colossal     4d6      3d6

Breath Weapon (Su): At 2nd level, a half-dragon gains a breath weapon similar to that of the dragon that provided the benefits of the template. The breath weapon is usable once per day, until third level, and allows a Reflex save (DC 10 + 1/2 half-dragon's racial HD + half-dragon's Constitution modifier) for half damage. The shape and size of the breath weapon are given by the following table.

[b]Dragon   Breath
Variety  Weapon [/b]
Black    60-foot line of acid 
Blue     60-foot line of lightning 
Brass    60-foot line of fire 
Bronze   60-foot line of lightning 
Copper   60-foot line of acid 
Gold     30-foot cone of fire 
Green    30-foot cone of corrosive (acid) gas 
Red      30-foot cone of fire 
Silver   30-foot cone of cold 
White    30-foot cone of cold

When first acquired, the breath weapon deals only 3d8 points of damage. When the half-dragon reaches 3rd level, the base damage for the breath weapon increases to 6d8. Also, at third level, the half-dragon may use her innate breath weapon three times per day (but only once every 1d4 rounds)

Immunities (Ex): At 2nd level, the half-dragon becomes immune to sleep and paralysis. When she reaches 3rd level, her template-based energy resistance (see Resistances, above) is replaced by total immunity to that energy type.

Wings (Ex): At 3rd level, a Large or larger half-dragon grows fully functional wings and may use them to fly at up to twice her land speed (maximum 120 feet) with average maneuverability. A Medium or smaller half-dragon either does not grow wings or grows nonfunctional vestigial ones.

Dragon Type: At 3rd level, the half-dragon completes her metamorphosis, and her type changes to dragon. She becomes vulnerable to spells and effects that work on creatures of the dragon type but is immune to effects that target her original type. For example, a half-human/half-dragon would be subject to the extra damage from a dragon bane sword, but she is immune to hold person because that spell affects only humanoids.

Ah gah, it took me ages to find the troll.... Stupid me, not keeping a copy of it in my notes. Had to grab a 4 month old post from the WoTC boards... But, anyways...

Troll

Base Troll: 2 claws, 1 bite (natural weapons, each does 1d4), +2 Str, +2 Con, Int -4, Wis -2, Cha -4. Lowlight Vision, Dark Vision. Speed 30.

BAB: Medium, as Cleric.
Hit dice: d8.
Skill points: 2+Int bonus
Class skills: Listen and Spot.
Class (Race) Defence Bonus: +0 (Sorry. No PC class, no Dex type defensive features, no CDB).
Good Fort Save.

Weapons and Armor: Proficent with Simple and Martial Weapons. (Since I'm using weapon groups, the translates to Basic, plus Thrown+sling group, and two of choice). No Armor Proficeny.

Level 1   Scent, Large size, Regneration 1, 
          +2 Str, +2 Con, +1 Natural Armor.

Level 2   Rend, Regneration 2, +2 Str, +2 Con,
          +1 Natural Armor.

Level 3   Regeneration 3, +2 Str, +2 Con,
          +2 Dex, +1 Natural Armor.

Level 4   Improved Natural weapons (d4 becomes d6)
          Regeneration 4, +2 Str, +2 Con,
          +1 Natural Armor.

Level 5   Regeneration 5, +2 Str, +2 Con, 
          +1 Natural Armor.

Now, I know that it's missing a hit die, but as I said, I'm just aproximatign things - the fact that the PC troll goes up levels in troll without being born into being a troll is something of a weirdness with the rules, so I think they can be bent to drop a hit die without dying from it.

 

[Malin Genie]

I agree with Pax that levels sacrificed to level adjustment shouldn't be treated as levels able to be 'gestalted' with another class.

However, as KaeYoss suggested, a gestalt level is 'worth more' than a regular level, and so I would be inclined to allow the sacrifice of fewer gestalt levels to allow a monster type (for example, a Succubus with +6 LA might only lose 3 or 4 gestalt levels.)

 

[Chun-tzu]

Personally, I've never been terribly interested in monstrous PCs (except for maybe Centaurs, due to fond memories of Centaur Knights in the Shining Force video game). But I would allow Bloodline levels to be treated like base class levels, even though they don't have hit dice. I'd love to play a sorcerer with a dragon bloodline (major), but losing 3 levels of spellcasting for a sorcerer is just insane (even if you're still casting as a full level sorcerer). Gestalt characters allow a nice way around this balance problem.