QUESTION: Achaierai Black Cloud - Poison or not?

As I stated earlier, Acheirai are naturally occurring birds (despite their extraplanar origin), which makes their secreted gas a toxin, which makes it a poison.

There are many drugs that are naturally occurring in the plant and animal kingdoms. There are many toxins and many poisons as well. The Druid's immunity to poison supercedes these, they're all extraordinary abilities.

However, I must reiterate that the DM's call - that the Acheirai secretes supernatural gas that is not poisonous for the effects of immunity to poison - supercedes all other rules, regardless of where you find them. Rule 0 (it's a game, have fun) and Rule 1 (the DM is the official rulebook) supercede ALL rules though, which makes it a moot argument.
 

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I regret that I cannot XP you for your military service.

Thanks for the support, I'll pass it on to my wife (currently serving in the USNavy).
I would EXP you for the conversation, but the same problem occurs - you give good advice and I EXP when I can, the system just doesn't work when one person gives a lot of good advice all the time.
 



Based on this, I would say chemical toxicants are "poisons" while the others are not.


There are generally three types of toxic entities; chemical, biological, and physical:

Chemical toxicants include inorganic substances such as lead, mercury, asbestos, hydrofluoric acid, and chlorine gas, organic compounds such as methyl alcohol, most medications, and poisons from living things.

Biological toxicants include bacteria and viruses that can induce disease in living organisms. Biological toxicity can be difficult to measure because the "threshold dose" may be a single organism. Theoretically one virus, bacterium or worm can reproduce to cause a serious infection. However, in a host with an intact immune system the inherent toxicity of the organism is balanced by the host's ability to fight back; the effective toxicity is then a combination of both parts of the relationship. A similar situation is also present with other types of toxic agents.

Physical toxicants are substances that, due to their physical nature, interfere with biological processes. Examples include coal dust and asbestos fibers, both of which can ultimately be fatal if inhaled.
 

In my 3.5 Ed game, an enemy caster summoned an Achaierai next to one of the PCs, an 11th-level Druid. The Achaierai used its Black Cloud ability, which I will quote from the MM as follows, for those of you without books or eidetic memory:


My PC said that his druid's Venom Immunity makes him immune to the cloud's effects.

I said that although it may quack like a poison, it does not specifically say that it's a poison, so his druid should not be immune.

So. Yes, it's an Ex ability, which means reality-defying, but non-magical. Yes it requires a fort save. Yes the fluff text mentions the word "toxic." Yes, in 1E D&D the Black Cloud was considered a poison effect. Yes, in some non-WotC books there are lists of poison that include Black Cloud Poison (at least, I haven't seen that in any of the WotC books I own.) I'm still feeling stubborn about it, but am open to the majority ruling here.

Thoughts? Opinions? Ridicule?

I would say that RAW since it does not say it is a poison it is not poison as an effect.

Venom Immunity (Ex)
At 9th level, a druid gains immunity to all poisons.

Poison

Poison
When a character takes damage from an attack with a poisoned weapon, touches an item smeared with contact poison, consumes poisoned food or drink, or is otherwise poisoned, he must make a Fortitude saving throw. If he fails, he takes the poison’s initial damage (usually ability damage). Even if he succeeds, he typically faces more damage 1 minute later, which he can also avoid with a successful Fortitude saving throw. The Fortitude save DC against a creature’s natural poison attack is equal to 10 + ½ poisoning creature’s racial HD + poisoning creature’s Con modifier (the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

One dose of poison smeared on a weapon or some other object affects just a single target. A poisoned weapon or object retains its venom until the weapon scores a hit or the object is touched (unless the poison is wiped off before a target comes in contact with it). Any poison smeared on an object or exposed to the elements in any way remains potent until it is touched or used.

Although supernatural and spell-like poisons are possible, poisonous effects are almost always extraordinary.

Poisons can be divided into four basic types according to the method by which their effect is delivered, as follows.

Contact
Merely touching this type of poison necessitates a saving throw. It can be actively delivered via a weapon or a touch attack. Even if a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison can still affect it. A chest or other object can be smeared with contact poison as part of a trap.

Ingested
Ingested poisons are virtually impossible to utilize in a combat situation. A poisoner could administer a potion to an unconscious creature or attempt to dupe someone into drinking or eating something poisoned. Assassins and other characters tend to use ingested poisons outside of combat.

Inhaled
Inhaled poisons are usually contained in fragile vials or eggshells. They can be thrown as a ranged attack with a range increment of 10 feet. When it strikes a hard surface (or is struck hard), the container releases its poison. One dose spreads to fill the volume of a 10-foot cube. Each creature within the area must make a saving throw. (Holding one’s breath is ineffective against inhaled poisons; they affect the nasal membranes, tear ducts, and other parts of the body.)

Injury
This poison must be delivered through a wound. If a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison does not affect it. Traps that cause damage from weapons, needles, and the like sometimes contain injury poisons.

The characteristics of poisons are summarized on Table: Poisons. Terms on the table are defined below.

Type
The poison’s method of delivery (contact, ingested, inhaled, or via an injury) and the Fortitude save DC to avoid the poison’s damage.

Initial Damage
The damage the character takes immediately upon failing his saving throw against this poison. Ability damage is temporary unless marked with an asterisk (*), in which case the loss is a permanent drain. Paralysis lasts for 2d6 minutes.

Secondary Damage
The amount of damage the character takes 1 minute after exposure as a result of the poisoning, if he fails a second saving throw. Unconsciousness lasts for 1d3 hours. Ability damage marked with an asterisk is permanent drain instead of temporary damage.

Price
The cost of one dose (one vial) of the poison. It is not possible to use or apply poison in any quantity smaller than one dose. The purchase and possession of poison is always illegal, and even in big cities it can be obtained only from specialized, less than reputable sources.

Perils Of Using Poison
A character has a 5% chance of exposing himself to a poison whenever he applies it to a weapon or otherwise readies it for use. Additionally, a character who rolls a natural 1 on an attack roll with a poisoned weapon must make a DC 15 Reflex save or accidentally poison himself with the weapon. A creature with a poison attack is immune to its own poison and the poison of others of its kind.

Poison Immunities
Creatures with natural poison attacks are immune to their own poison. Nonliving creatures (constructs and undead) and creatures without metabolisms (such as elementals) are always immune to poison. Oozes, plants, and certain kinds of outsiders are also immune to poison, although conceivably special poisons could be concocted specifically to harm them.

If you want to quibble with him then a toxic cloud could be full of pollutants and hazardous substances such as acids that would not normally be considered a D&D poison.

The cloud does 2d6 damage. Is this from being toxic or is it from choking? Would a venom immune creature be immune to choking damage from smoke/nonbreathable pollutant cloud inhalation?

From a story perspective it is like the roper strength drain, in past editions these were poisons, in 3e the mechanics do not make them poisons. It would be fine to house rule it to make it a poison to match the history and the flavor text but it is not a big deal either way.
 

Since the Acheirai is absolutely a naturally occurring creature, and his toxic cloud is poisonous, I'd argue that the Druid should be immune based on these merits.

Why would you say the achaierai is a naturally occurring creature? Because it is shaped like a giant flightless bird?

It is an outsider

An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.


•Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose.

•Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish).

It is an outsider from the LE battle planes of Acheron and only exists on the natural world when summoned through powerful evil and lawful magic. It is an intelligent spirit being and innately speaks the planar language infernal.

It is as much a naturally occurring creature as a lantern archon or an osyluth.
 

And you can't argue that Archons and Osyluths do not naturally occur in the D&D Universe. They aren't strange, man made machinations.
The same is said for any Outsider. Just because their home plane is not the prime material does not make them unnatural beings.
 

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