D&D 5E Question: Am I treating this situation correctly?

[DMCF]

Situation
Last night I had an encounter that left me a little sour. A monk in our group claimed he could throw darts and then use his bonus action to make an unarmed strike. His argument hinged on the fact that monks were proficient with simple weapons and darts. A monk proficiency therefore made these weapons monk weapons. Having played a monk I hadn't thought of ever doing this and checked my PHB.

Indeed monks are proficient with darts. However, the martial arts section says simple melee weapons. It seems fitting to me that a ninja throws a dart or shriruken (more as a distraction) at his target as he attacked but while I was still trying to interpret RAW he pitched a fit and started arguing. The reason I wanted to read RAW was because I need to be cautious when bending rules not to disturb the balance of power taking the fun from other players.

What do you guys think about monks throwing a dart then making an unarmed strike? Is it OP?
At level 20 it is 2d10 ranged attacks followed by 1d10 unarmed melee. The only thing the monk looses is throwing ranged at disadvantage next to another creature within 5' before stepping into melee range. He doesn't have a bonus action so he can't spend Ki to disengage and run. What he gains is the ability to throw weapons at a creature further away with more accuracy.

I don't think this is to bad if he stays pure monk (he did multi-class nature cleric) . There is a lot of potential for him to save the lives of his team members.

Where I see this being OP:
If he dips rogue I see this mechanic as getting a sneak attack off and then some bonus action attacks rolling.


Here is what I intend to do:
Since he pitched a fit there needs to be an understanding. There are four other players (not counting me) who are here for a good time. 3 of them don't meta worth a damn. Pitching a fit is not fun. Therefore he will not be able to throw darts.

He will however, be able to throw shuriken, of which he has none in the current dungeon.

Supply
Since we are on the Sword Coast "eastern" equipment is rare. Collectors in major towns may have a few items in limited quantities and if bought they are sold at a premium. He may find some adventuring as well, but again, we are on the Sword Coast and they are rare.

Balance
Throwing a shuriken and making an unarmed strike is a fluid motion. Intent to make the unarmed strike must be mentioned before the weapon is thrown. Targeting any creature but the intended target will be made at disadvantage.



The person in question admitted he is a little socially awkward before. I think he's a nice guy and as I put it to another player "Once he sees that you guys are crafting the story with me and not doing math for my personal story he'll want to join in the fun".

 

[Tony Vargas]

You seem to be handling the situation fine - overthinking it a lot, but not mis-handling it.

Don't worry much about balance, 5e isn't that balanced a game, and, as the DM, you can always tweak things - from fudging rolls to manipulating situations - to maintain a rough balance and keep everyone happy and participating on the fly.

If you ever do find you have a player who just has to feel like he's getting away with something and doing more damage than everyone else, let him - and mentally reduce his damage when tracking monster hps (if you even bother tracking monster hps). Keep your notes behind a DM screen and no one should be the wiser.

 

[Cernor]

If a player argues and throws a fit when you try to figure out how something works RAW, immediately make a ruling to their detriment. They may whine and complain and throw yet another fit, but stick to your guns for now. After the session, go over the relevant rules (in this case, make sure you're clear on the ranged weapon/melee weapon/ranged attack/melee attack distinction). If the player was right, apologize and say you made a ruling to accelerate play and carry on with that understanding. If they were wrong, tell them and explain to them why you ruled the way you did. If it's ambiguous, sit down and have a (calm, fit-less) discussion about each of your perspectives and sort it out there. If the player refuses to discuss it, then it's probably best to not play with them.

 

[Paraxis]

During a session go with your gut ruling and just play, stopping for excessive amounts of time or multiple times in a session to look up rules slows down play, destroys any sense of immersion, and isn't very fun.
Make a note of any rule you want to look up later, and explain that DM's are allowed to change previous rulings and judgement calls, it happens all the time.

Saying that, players throwing fits is way worse. If you act like are 5 years old, you can't play at my table, unless you are 5 and I invited you because some 5 year olds are cool. (Read in a loving father way, not a creepy stranger way, my son started playing D&D around 6 when he first showed interest in what his dad was doing.)

As to the rule.

This is one of those weird, they didn't use the right language in the books things IMO.

A dart is not a melee weapon so it is not a monk weapon, simply being proficient doesn't make something a monk weapon or short bows would be monk weapons.

The normal bonus action attack under martial arts ability says, "When you use the attack action with an unarmed strike or monk weapon, on your turn, you may make one unarmed strike as a bonus action."

Throwing a dart as your attack action is not an attack with a monk weapon.

Throwing a dagger would be, so if you refluff something as a shuriken I would refluff a dagger.

KI point usage, Flurry of blows. "Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action."

Flurry of blows doesn't limit your attacks you take with the Attack action to monk only weapons, an elf monk for example could fire a long bow, move up to an enemy, and unarmed strike twice.

EDIT: wanted to add my opinion of the rule, I would ignore the "monk weapon" requirement on the martial arts bonus action attack, just like flurry of blows already does. There should be no difference between throwing a dart and throwing a dagger, if you multiclass rogue daggers & short swords can already be used to sneak attack and are both already monk weapons, if you multiclass and get a two handed sword it is upping a single attack from a d8 (using the staff or spear 2-handed) to 2d6 for the great sword not that big a deal.

 

[Psikerlord#]

If your concern re OPness is connected with MCing into rogue, I suggest not allowing MCing. I dont allow it for simplicity/balance reasons and there's no downside, as far as I can tell.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Situation
A monk in our group claimed he could throw darts and then use his bonus action to make an unarmed strike. His argument hinged on the fact that monks were proficient with simple weapons and darts. A monk proficiency therefore made these weapons monk weapons.

That's incorrect. A monk can only do this when they attack with an unarmed strike or a "monk weapon."

"Monk weapons" are defined in the Marital Arts feature as being shortswords and simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property.

Darts, being ranged weapons, aren't "monk weapons."

Not every weapon monks are proficient with is considered a "monk weapon." Which is counter-intuitive as all get out, but there it is.

It seems fitting to me that a ninja throws a dart or shriruken (more as a distraction) at his target as he attacked but while I was still trying to interpret RAW he pitched a fit and started arguing.

Sounds like you got a winner on your hands there.

What do you guys think about monks throwing a dart then making an unarmed strike? Is it OP?

OP...eh...yeah, a bit. It basically allows a monk to get a much more powerful ranged weapon than most other characters. That's not kosher. The reason it's limited to melee is so that ranged attacks aren't suddenly just flat-out better than melee attacks.

Not that this breaks the game or anything, it just makes the monk the best ranged attacker in the game, which...might not be what you want? But it also might not be a big deal for you.

Here is what I intend to do:
Since he pitched a fit there needs to be an understanding. There are four other players (not counting me) who are here for a good time. 3 of them don't meta worth a damn. Pitching a fit is not fun. Therefore he will not be able to throw darts.

He will however, be able to throw shuriken, of which he has none in the current dungeon.

Introducing shuriken is an interesting solution, but if you're going for the "toss ninja stars" feel, you probably still shouldn't let him treat those as a monk weapon, because then he's dealing d10 damage with a friggin' ninja star, and the fighter with the bow is still stuck doing d8 with two hands (or d10 with loading). Bleh.

Supply
Since we are on the Sword Coast "eastern" equipment is rare. Collectors in major towns may have a few items in limited quantities and if bought they are sold at a premium. He may find some adventuring as well, but again, we are on the Sword Coast and they are rare.

Rarity is generally not a good way to balance something that's otherwise too powerful. Either the player doesn't have access to the ability, in which case its power is irrelevant, or he does have access to the ability, in which case it's overpowered. It's also kind of easy to meta-game into a situation where that rarity...isn't so rare.

Balance
Throwing a shuriken and making an unarmed strike is a fluid motion. Intent to make the unarmed strike must be mentioned before the weapon is thrown. Targeting any creature but the intended target will be made at disadvantage.

It limits it, but it still feels REALLY powerful when it happens.

The person in question admitted he is a little socially awkward before. I think he's a nice guy and as I put it to another player "Once he sees that you guys are crafting the story with me and not doing math for my personal story he'll want to join in the fun".

Eh. People have different game styles. Maybe the maths and dominating character combos are fun for this guy. Which is all well and good, but he should be adhering closely to RAW, in that case. Don't let him "steamroll" you just because he's crying about it! "Nice guys" don't wreck their friends good time because they can't use a particular kind of die when they're pretending be a magical fairy elf in a land of unicorns and princesses! Maybe he over-reacted (and he probably comes across worse on the message boards than he is IRL), and he'll settle down, but it's his job to help everyone have fun, too.

 

[Shiroiken]

I think you handled it fairly well. My only suggestion would have been to make a quick ruling (either way) and get back to the game, with the express caveat that you will review the situation before the next session where you will make the final ruling. I've made a host of mistakes mid-game (in just my current campaign), and you just flow with it and adapt as needed. So long as your players are reasonable adults, this works extremely well.

This brings me to the more important problem*. Your player pitched a fit, which brought play to a screaming halt (regardless of how much time you took). I would suggest you talk with the player away from the session. That behavior is unacceptable, IMO, and would quickly get the player booted from my game. I've had to (temporarily) boot friends from my games, which strained the relationship, but I felt it was better than punishing the rest of the group with such nonsense. If the player cannot act in a respectful manner, it might be time for them to seek another game.

*This assumes the description that you gave was accurate. It's possible you were being a tyrant, but with only your viewpoint, this is the best I can do. All I can suggest for you is to replay the event in your mind, and make sure that you were being a fair and impartial judge.

As for the actual ruling, the player could do the exact same thing with a dagger or spear. Unless the dart/shuriken is needed for some reason (beyond "it's cool"), then the player should just use a dagger or spear. If the shuriken is the important part, then you can simply use the dagger for the shiroiken instead of the dart. Alternately, create an additional wuxia weapon (shaken or chakram) that copies the dagger, allowing them to use that. Finally, you can always allow it, because other than a bit of extra range, it's not really very powerful.

 

[BoldItalic]

I'd agree that the rules allow the unarmed strike bonus action after a ranged attack with a simple throwing weapon (such as a dagger or spear) but not ranged weapons (such as darts) which are not "monk weapons" for the purposes of that rule. Indeed, merely wielding darts, without even attacking with them, would block the bonus unarmed strike because you are not "unarmed or wielding only monk weapons".

This presupposes that there is an enemy within 5 feet to make the unarmed strike on, so the ranged attack would be at disadvantage regardless of whether it was against the same target or a different one, because of the "Ranged Attacks in Close Combat" rule.

So, the OP was right and the player was wrong. It's bad form for a player to argue with the DM, but, let's face it, players are human and some want to "win" on their terms.

We don't have official rules for oriental weapons, but in the DDNext final playtest rules, the shuriken was a simple ranged weapon equivalent to a dart, so ruling that a shuriken is a monk weapon (for the purposes of the Martial Arts rule) but the dart isn't, doesn't really work.

 

[Cernor]

We don't have official rules for oriental weapons, but in the DDNext final playtest rules, the shuriken was a simple ranged weapon equivalent to a dart, so ruling that a shuriken is a monk weapon (for the purposes of the Martial Arts rule) but the dart isn't, doesn't really work.

You should read the chart on page 41 of the DMG. It has the names for every weapon in a wuxia setting: shurikens are the equivalent of darts.

 

[Sage Genesis]

Strictly speaking, the OP was correct in terms of how throwing darts interacts with martial arts.

That said, the player can get the exact same stats and effects by throwing daggers instead. There is nothing OP about tossing 1d4 weapons around, let him do it. Whether it's a dart or a dagger really doesn't matter one bit.