Question: Attack of Opportunity Penalties?

[Coyoteoldman]

When using Combat Expertise or Power Attack, does the penalty you take also apply to attacks of opportunity? I had thought that because attacks of opportunity completely interrupt combat they suffer none of the penalties (regardless of whether they take place before or after your turn), but now I am not sure.

Can anybody clarify this issue for me?

 

[Erratic K]

They apply to all your attacks until your next initiative. Attack of Opportunity or not.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise

 

[Kmart Kommando]

When using Two Weapon Fighting, however, the penalties don't carry over into AoOs.

TWF gives penalties to your regular and offhand attacks, and AoOs are not regular or offhand attacks as per the section on AoOs. And TWF doesn't say "for the whole round", or "until your next turn" etc..

 

[Dheran]

The penalties persist for the full round (i.e., until the start of your next turn) only if so stated; otherwise they don't. Here are all the places where this is stated in the core rules, as far as I know:

• the rules for fighting defensively and total defense
• the Power Attack feat

Penalty persistence isn't stated for TWF. The Combat Expertise feat is an odd one, because the penalties last until your next action -- which means they could persist until your next turn if you take a full attack, or end immediately if you follow a standard action attack with a move action.

 

[Felix]

When using Two Weapon Fighting, however, the penalties don't carry over into AoOs.

This depends upon the interpretation of, "when fighting in this way".

If it means: when you gain an extra off-hand attack during a full attack, then the penalties don't persist through to the next round.

If it means: when you wield two weapons (as opposed to wielding one weapon and simply holding another), then the penalties do persist into Attacks of Opportunity.

If "wielding" is synonymous with "threatening", then you may take the AoO with either weapon at a penalty; if you are wielding one weapon and simply holding another, then you may only take the AoO with the wielded weapon at no penalty.​

Again, it matters how you interpret "when fighting in this way", found in the TWF section, and exactly what "wielding" means. It's vague and has no clear answer.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Combat Expertise feat is an odd one, because the penalties last until your next action -- which means they could persist until your next turn if you take a full attack, or end immediately if you follow a standard action attack with a move action.

Combat Expertise is a case where 'until your next action' is used in such a way as to mean 'for one round' - that is, until your next turn in the initiative order.

An explicit example is Stunning Fist: "A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next action)."

Similarly, with monks: "This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action."

-Hyp.

 

[Inigo Carmine]

The Combat Expertise feat is an odd one, because the penalties last until your next action -- which means they could persist until your next turn if you take a full attack, or end immediately if you follow a standard action attack with a move action.

It's a copy and paste from 3.0. Remember in 3.0 you couldn't do a standard action and a move action in the same round. A standard action took up your entire round, but you were allowed a move (or move equivalent) action for free as part of this standard action, either before or after it.

So, bottom line:

In 3.0 language: Your next action = next round on your turn.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

This depends upon the interpretation of, "when fighting in this way".

If it means: when you gain an extra off-hand attack during a full attack, then the penalties don't persist through to the next round.

If it means: when you wield two weapons (as opposed to wielding one weapon and simply holding another), then the penalties do persist into Attacks of Opportunity.

If "wielding" is synonymous with "threatening", then you may take the AoO with either weapon at a penalty; if you are wielding one weapon and simply holding another, then you may only take the AoO with the wielded weapon at no penalty.​

Again, it matters how you interpret "when fighting in this way", found in the TWF section, and exactly what "wielding" means. It's vague and has no clear answer.

That might be true, except that the TWF entry says:

You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

and doesn't say 'for one round', until your next turn' etc, and the last line of AoOs says:

All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

AoOs are not regular attacks, they are extra free attacks made at your full normal attack bonus, unless using CE, PA, or fighting defensively, because they specifically say ALL attacks until next round. Unlike TWF, which only says your regular attack(s) (implied attack or attacks gained due to high BAB, as explained in the text of TWF) and the extra offhand attack.
A wizard holding a dagger who cast a spell with one hand while holding the dagger in the other on his last turn can still use the dagger to take an AoO on someone who tries to run past him, so your 'wielding' and 'threatening' interpretation does not affect anything, unless you are going to make your wizard take a -4 with his spell attack roll, if any, and a -8 with the dagger when he takes his AoO. Which is just silly.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Unlike TWF, which only says your regular attack(s) (implied attack or attacks gained due to high BAB, as explained in the text of TWF) and the extra offhand attack.

If we have a TWFer with Haste and Rapid Shot, who throws two extra daggers with his right hand (one from Haste, one from Rapid Shot), do you consider those to be 'regular attacks'? Or do you consider them to be 'extra attacks made at your full normal attack bonus'? Would the -6 penalty apply?

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

If we have a TWFer with Haste and Rapid Shot, who throws two extra daggers with his right hand (one from Haste, one from Rapid Shot), do you consider those to be 'regular attacks'? Or do you consider them to be 'extra attacks made at your full normal attack bonus'? Would the -6 penalty apply?

-Hyp.

They would fall under normal attacks, because they are only usable during a full attack.
The -2 from Rapid Shot counts for all attacks you make during that full attack, because it says so right in the feat. An AoO is not part of a full attack. The both daggers would be thrown at -4 (2 for TWF and 2 for Rapid Shot), because they are part of the full attack you had to use in order to gain the extra attack(s), which are modified by -2 for TWF and -2 for Rapid Shot.

If your TWF/Rapid Shot/Hasted thrower (assuming he has Quickdraw for that scenario to even be possible) drew a third dagger at the end of his turn, he could use it during an AoO, at total -0 penalty (actually, +1 for Haste)

If he also had, and used Combat Expertise that round, say -4, then all attacks during that full attack, as well as the AoO, would be at -4 more

My theory: with Power Attack, you're swinging for the fences, so it'll affect your ability to exploit an opening in your opponent's defenses. With Combat Expertise, you're concentrating on defense, so it'll also affect your ability to exploit an opening in your opponent's defenses. With if you're fighting with 2 weapons, it is that much easier to exploit an opening, as they have 2 sharp pointy things to worry about.
I grew up with my brothers, playing the 'let's hit each other with sticks' game, and the guy with 2 sticks usually wins.