Question - my Players please don't read.

Quasqueton

First Post
From the SRD, in Combat II:
Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents may still make Spot checks to notice the location of an invisible character. An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Hide checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Hide checks when not moving (even though opponents can’t see you, they might be able to figure out where you are from other visual clues).
Under the Hide skill:
When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.
Although the Blindsight/Blindsense listings in the SRD mention not needing to make Spot or Listen checks, I couldn't find anything saying Listen could be used to pinpoint (or even determine direction) an invisible enemy.

Say a character (assume no ranks in Hide and average Dex) is invisible and casting spells. Does the character get a Hide check (just a straight d20 in this case) +40 vs. the enemy's spot checks? To hear the character casting a spell is Listen DC 0 (speaking), but how much info does this give the listener? Can he tell the direction of the voice? Can the enemy use a Listen check to pinpoint the character's square? What DC?

If the character moves full speed (-10 to Hide?) while invisible (+20) is the Hide check essentially a d20 +10? How about using Listen to pinpoint the character's square?

Basically, how does Spot and Listen work in pinpointing an invisible opponent? Can they do this?

Quasqueton
 

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Quasqueton said:
From the SRD, in Combat II:
Under the Hide skill:
Although the Blindsight/Blindsense listings in the SRD mention not needing to make Spot or Listen checks, I couldn't find anything saying Listen could be used to pinpoint (or even determine direction) an invisible enemy.

There's no specific mention because that's the entire point of the ability. If they don't need to make any sort of Listen or Spot checks to see an enemy, they would be able to bypass invisibility quite easily, as Invisibility is purely sight-based. Blindsight allows you to specifically target and attack an enemy without any sort of miss chance, whereas Blindsense allows you to pinpoint your enemy, but you still have a miss chance.
 

I would allow the opponents a Listen check vs DC 15 in the case where a spellcaster has Improved Invisibility (or the equivalent), and add 5 to the DC for every 5ft square between the opponent and the invisible spellcaster. If the check is successful, an opponent could try to attack the square occupied by the invisible character with a 50% miss chance.

That's not based on any rules - just something I might make up on the spot since it seems like the rules don't cover this situation very well.
 
Last edited:


Quasqueton said:
Say a character (assume no ranks in Hide and average Dex) is invisible and casting spells. Does the character get a Hide check (just a straight d20 in this case) +40 vs. the enemy's spot checks?
Yes, in my view. Remember the penalize the Spot check by -1 for every 10 feet of distance between the character and the enemy (see description of the Spot skill).


To hear the character casting a spell is Listen DC 0 (speaking), but how much info does this give the listener? Can he tell the direction of the voice? Can the enemy use a Listen check to pinpoint the character's square? What DC?
As previously mentioned, DC 20 to pinpoint the square (but not the caster - the listener still has a miss chance). The DC increases by 1 for every 10 feet of distance between the caster and the listener (see the description of the Listen skill).


If the character moves full speed (-10 to Hide?) while invisible (+20) is the Hide check essentially a d20 +10?
-10 is probably a good compromise, since I can't find anything in the rules for the penalty to apply when moving at full speed. So yes, the Hide check is d20+10.


How about using Listen to pinpoint the character's square?

Basically, how does Spot and Listen work in pinpointing an invisible opponent? Can they do this?
For a fuller discussion on invisibility, see the following extract from the SRD (Abilities and Conditions):

SRD said:
INVISIBILITY
The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can’t be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.
Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision.
Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).
A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures
Invisible Creature Is . . . / DC
In combat or speaking: 0
Moving at half speed: Move Silently check result
Moving at full speed: Move Silently check result –4
Running or charging: Move Silently check result –20
Some distance away: +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door): +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall): +15

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)
If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.
If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.
If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.
If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible.
Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.
An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.
A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.
A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)
A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.
An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.
Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help.
Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.
Invisibility does not thwart detect spells.
Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.
 

Also, if the PC isn't attempting to hide, I'd put the DC to spot that there is something there at 40 (0 for no attempt at hiding, +40 for standing still) base, if they moved up to normal speed or above half, 20-10=+10, or DC 10. For listening, if they aren't attempting to move silently, I'd make the base DC 0 to hear them moving (10, -10 for full movement).

The only way to actually PINPOINT which square an enemy is in (Note, only the square, still a 50% miss chance to hit them) is to beat the DC to hear them by 20. So a person chanting 5 feet away would require a DC20 listen to pinpoint, 400 feet away(for fireball range)...DC 60, with a DC40 to even hear them chanting. Also, any round where there is, or will be melee combat, I'd impose a +5 to the DC of the check due to background noise.

Calrin Alshaw
 

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