Question on initiative/surprise

[NewJeffCT]

The drow raiding party scenario I had mentioned in some previous threads is going to be taking place this Friday. The PCs managed to use Commune to narrow down the location to a certain elf village that the drow raiders will strike. They also managed to narrow down the time to between midnight and dawn...

The PCs also have an item that functions similarly to the Anticipate Teleport spell, but does not tell them the exact location the drow will be teleporting to in the village like the spell. So, the PCs will know (via this amulet) when exactly the drow will arrive in town.

The drow expect resistance, so before the two drow arcane casters cast their teleport spells, the drow clerics, rogues, etc will ready actions to move to assigned locations upon their materialization. What will surprise the drow is the level of resistance (the PCs) they will be facing.

The PCs will have two rounds to cast buffing spells and then will need to spot the teleporting drow in the darkness once they teleport in.

My question is - if the PCs have readied actions to cast a spell, will they be able to both Spot the drow (they'd appear within a 120 foot radius of the amulet in a forest at night) & cast before the drow can take their readied actions? How about a PC that readies to charge the nearest drow - same thing, can they spot & charge? As I said, the drow expect some resistance, but just not the power level of it...so, I would not consider them surprised at being attacked. An almost 8 foot tall 400 pound goliath barbarian charging at them will be a surprise, though!

Do I just have them roll initiative and go in order?

Anything I'm missing?

Thanks

 

[Shin Okada]

In such a situation (teleportation assault), I usually don't let combatants (both PCs and Raiders) ready actions. I will simply let all of them roll initiative when raiders are materialized and call it the start of encounter. Buffing are considered to be pre-encounter activities. That makes the handling of the game much easier. And avoid complex initiative changing issues due to readying actions.

 

[billd91]

I don't allow characters involved in teleporting themselves anywhere hold actions just like I don't allow them to do it when walking into a dungeon, entering town, and so on. It's not holding an action: It's waiting until you get to act and then moving.

Considering the PCs know about where and when the Drow are arriving, I'd just use the surprise rules. PCs know of the Drows' presence, Drow don't know of the PCs' presence, PCs get a surprise action before the Drow can throw into the initiative mix. I understand that the Drow are expecting resistance, but the PCs are about as well prepared as anyone can be and I'd definitely give them the benefit of the surprise action to reward their diligence.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I don't allow characters involved in teleporting themselves anywhere hold actions just like I don't allow them to do it when walking into a dungeon, entering town, and so on. It's not holding an action: It's waiting until you get to act and then moving.

Considering the PCs know about where and when the Drow are arriving, I'd just use the surprise rules. PCs know of the Drows' presence, Drow don't know of the PCs' presence, PCs get a surprise action before the Drow can throw into the initiative mix. I understand that the Drow are expecting resistance, but the PCs are about as well prepared as anyone can be and I'd definitely give them the benefit of the surprise action to reward their diligence.

However, a 120 foot radius is a big area to scan at night - it's 240 feet across and you could literally need to turn your whole body around in order to cast.

That said, the PCs should have some advantage... but, I think a whole surprise round at a high level is a gigantic advantage (i.e., the party cleric casts a readied Implosion at them!)

spoilers below - so if my group is reading this, they can hopefully bypass.

Spoiler

However, the way the drow got to the town was that the whole raiding party (orogs & a hill giant barbarian) shadow walked as near as possible. The minions (under the direction of a drow marshall) then walk overland to assault the village from one side, while the drow leaders teleport into the village from the other side in coordination with the minions' attack.

 

[irdeggman]

That said, the PCs should have some advantage... but, I think a whole surprise round at a high level is a gigantic advantage (i.e., the party cleric casts a readied Implosion at them!)

Per RAW you can't ready an action until it is your turn in the initiative order.

And you only have a surprise round "before" the initiative order starts.

That is to say that per RAW you can't ready an action outside of combat, although many people house-rule it differently per RAW it is not allowed.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Per RAW you can't ready an action until it is your turn in the initiative order.

And you only have a surprise round "before" the initiative order starts.

That is to say that per RAW you can't ready an action outside of combat, although many people house-rule it differently per RAW it is not allowed.

Thanks - I didn't realize that you can't "ready" before initiative starts. So, you can ready an action only after you've taken your 1st turn in the initiative. Similarly, you can't cast an immediate action spell either.

 

[aboyd]

Since both sides are ready for war, I would simply allow both sides to take spot checks. The players are at a disadvantage for the spot because the drow have control of when they arrive and initiate battle. However, the enemy is at a disadvantage for the spot because they are taking part in the jarring experience of teleporting into a new environment -- even if they are familiar with the landscape, they will not know where the enemy is hiding, nor how the enemy modified the surroundings. So I would give each of them a big minus for spotting, say -8.

Anyone who spots participates in a surprise round. Anyone who doesn't is flat-footed. Due to the big penalty, I would expect most participants to be flat-footed.

While I would indeed allow anyone (player or monster) to ready an action for the commencement of combat, I certainly wouldn't allow those who cast Teleport spells to be a part of that. The readied action requires that you've sacrificed your standard action to wait. Those who cast Teleport have already used their standard action.

Also, those who have readied actions would need to have very specific triggers. For example, if they said, "I hit the enemy with a bow shot the moment I materialize," I would say it works only if they actually see the enemy when they materialize. So lots of readied actions would wither on the vine unless worded quite smartly. The wisest choice would probably be to have a readied action that didn't require any interaction with the enemy at all.

 

[irdeggman]

Thanks - I didn't realize that you can't "ready" before initiative starts. So, you can ready an action only after you've taken your 1st turn in the initiative. Similarly, you can't cast an immediate action spell either.

Well, for your first turn in the initiative order you can choose to "ready an action" that will occur after that point.

 

[green slime]

We rule the Teleporting ends all of a characters actions for that round (whether teleporting into, away from, or within, a combat).

The way I see it:

Drow cast teleport, outside of any combat.
Anticipate teleport triggers giving a few round warning. This allows the PCs to prepare a few rounds-worth of spells.
Drow zip in, being nauseated, thats what they get to do.
PCs get a surprise round: assuming they make their Spot/Listen checks. Remember there is no facing rules. These should be quite difficult, given terrain (cover/concealment), darkness, and distance.
Roll Initiative.
Then the Drow should also be required to make Spot/Listen checks, in order to ascertain the position of their assailants, but they have the advantage of darkvision, warcries of screaming warriors, etc. Depending on the setup, it may be obvious where their opponents are, or not.
Chaos ensues.

 

[billd91]

However, a 120 foot radius is a big area to scan at night - it's 240 feet across and you could literally need to turn your whole body around in order to cast.

So have them place where they want to be once they detect the incoming teleportation. And if they end up close enough (and with line of effect) to the landing zone, they get to take their surprise action as an attack of some sort, anybody without the range and line of effect ends up taking their surprise action as a single move action. Not that big a deal.

That said, the PCs should have some advantage... but, I think a whole surprise round at a high level is a gigantic advantage (i.e., the party cleric casts a readied Implosion at them!)

How would you handle it if the incoming party had blown their spot rolls? Wouldn't the surprise action also be too powerful under those circumstances? Yet those can happen all the time as a result of one group simply not knowing about the other. The game is built under the assumption that these things happen. And yes, it can be quite potent for high level characters. That's the way the game sometimes works.

I just don't see what's the big problem with readying implosion. Ready it, cast it in the surprise action, win initiative with a good roll and cast it then, the net effect is pretty much the same. An implosion spell goes off and starts to reduce the enemy forces before anybody can stop the cleric - which, if he was well-placed and under cover, should be darn hard to do anyway.