Question on Magic Item pricing

[Crimson King]

Hello there, first time poster here.

I have recently given a player in my game a 'Robe of the Elements'. Basically, it gives Endure Elements (5) to each of the four elements. How do I figure out the cost of that? Any hints? Tome and Blood is slightly unclear on some points...

Thank you for any help!

 

[kreynolds]

ER 15 will cost you 16,000 gp. I'd say ER 5 would cost you about 3,000 gp. Now, because the other 5 elements are secondary, they get doubled, so you'd end up with 27,000 gp.

EDIT: I forgot my obligitory "adjust the price, up or down, from there." Also, take into account that ER 30 is only 24,000 gp, so I think 27,000 is pretty fair.

 

[Crimson King]

Five elements...? Was that a type, or am I missing something? (Fire, Water, Earth, Air, right?)

Thanks for your quick answer, btw.

 

[kreynolds]

Five elements...?

Yes.

Was that a type

No.

or am I missing something?

Yes.

(Fire, Water, Earth, Air, right?)

The elements are Acid, Cold, Electricity (or Lightning), Fire, and Sonic.

Thanks for your quick answer, btw.

No problem.

<END SAGE EMULATION>

 

[Spatzimaus]

Does it give Endure Elements as the spell, a certain number of times per day? Does it give an always-on resistance effect?

kreynolds gave a good method for figuring price, although I'd actually go cheaper, since it's forcing you to take the elements you don't want to get the ones you do. For example, if it cost 3k to get a Fire 5, I'd prefer to just pay 15k to get Fire, Cold, and Electricity, without spending the last 12k to get Acid and Sonic (which don't come up as often IME). So, I'd go with a "buy 4, get 1 free" pricing method and call it 20k.
This assumes, of course, that it doesn't stack with resistance from other sources.
I have a ring IMC, the Ring of the Sun, that does something similar for stats; +2 to all six stats, plus acts as a Ring of Sustenance. While this should cost (4 + 5*2*4 + 2*2.5)=49k, I price it at 40k with a "buy 5, get 1 free" pricing on the stats, because very few classes actually need all 6 stats.

You could also base it on the Energy Buffer line of spells, since they work on all 5 elements.

 

[kreynolds]

Cheaper? Really? I somewhat kept in mind the value of the ring of Universal Elemental Resistance, Minor. It provides ER 15 against all 5 elements and runs 144,000gp. If you break down that price, you'll note that its worth the cost of 1 ER 15 ring at normal price and 4 more at double (1 at 16,000 gp and 4 more at 32,000 gp each) Also, whether or not you actually want one of the elements shouldn't affect the price, as the ER that you didn't want is still there, and it still has value.

It's kinda like a +1 flaming dagger. Even if you don't want the flaming, you still pay for it because its still there, ya' know?

 

[Spatzimaus]

It's more of a personal design philosophy thing, I guess. I know that, by the book, you don't reduce the additional costs at all, but that leads to items that cost far more than they are truly worth to the players.

Look at the ring I mentioned to see why I do this.

It gives a +2 enhancement bonus to all six stats. Okay, by the book, this is 4k for the first stat, and 8k for each other one, for a total of 44k. This is the same cost as if I bought a +2 slotted item and five +2 unslotted items for the other stats.

Now look at it from a practical point of view. This is actually not as good as having the slotted/unslotted combination. If the other five +2s were truly unslotted, I could replace each one once I find a +4 item. If I'm a Wizard, I'm not going to settle for a piddly +2 INT item when I can afford better (it IS a 40kgp item, after all, more expensive than a +6 slotted item). So, while I'll buy the +6 item eventually, I've now wasted 8k on a +2 INT boost from the ring that doesn't stack. And, to make it even worse, I would have rather upgraded the INT item myself, instead of buying an entirely new item.

Likewise, as a Wizard, I really don't care about the CHA boost. What I'd REALLY want would be an item that boosted INT, CON, and DEX. Instead, I'm being forced to pay for abilities that are incrementally less useful. If they were six separate items (5 of which were unslotted), I'd simply choose not to buy the STR, WIS, and CHA unslotted ones in the first place. Each of those would save me 8k, and with 24k I can buy a lot of Quaal's tree tokens. But, I don't have a choice, I HAD to buy all six stats, in a form that can't be effectively upgraded.

So, I called that 35k instead of 44, add another 5 for the Ring of Sustenance effect, and called the final item 40k.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Forgot to add: In regards to the specific question, decreasing the cost may not make as much sense. Enhancement bonuses are common, so the overlap I mentioned is far more detrimental in the ring I mentioned, while it's rare that the resistances in your ring will overlap with much.

But, it's still going to happen. ER 5 just isn't much. It's not going to have a dramatic effect in most situations; it's barely enough to stop the Flaming sorts of effects, so when you face something like a dragon, or visiting the Plane of Fire, etc., you're still going to want to put up all those elemental defense spells. That means in the situations where elemental resistance is most critical, the ER provided by your ring won't mean squat, because it'll be overwritten by the Protection from Elements someone in the group cast. A ring that gives universal ER 15, now that'll make a difference. But 5?

And the "unwanted" thing still comes up, too, for the same reason; Acid attacks just won't come up very often, but by the time you can get rings made (12th level), 5 points isn't going to do much against the types of damage you're looking at. Dissolving Touch (Psi 4) does 7d6 acid damage, and that's a psionic power!
End result: the rarer elemental types just aren't worth as much, moneywise. I've never seen anyone consciously choose Acid Resistance in an armor; it's always been loot. Your mileage may vary, of course, but given the choice between Fire and Acid resistance, I know which I see more often.

Incidentally, kreynolds, if ER 15 is 144k, wouldn't ER 5 be 16k? Most bonuses cost as the square of the ability, after all. Just wondering where you got your original price from.

 

[kreynolds]

ER 5 just isn't much. It's not going to have a dramatic effect in most situations; it's barely enough to stop the Flaming sorts of effects, so when you face something like a dragon, or visiting the Plane of Fire, etc., you're still going to want to put up all those elemental defense spells.

ER 5 against all energy types is pretty nice at mid level though, but I'll be the first to admit that its not the best way to spend your money. Heck, the Universal ring in the ELH even suffers from that problem. Personally, I think two or three energy types would be good enough.

But, I'm seeing your point about each additional ER becoming less valuable as a whole as you slap more of them on. Perhaps a decreasing scale would be better? Something like...

1st: x1
2nd: x2
3rd: x1.5
4th: x1
5th: x.75 or x.5

That looks pretty good. What do you think?

Incidentally, kreynolds, if ER 15 is 144k, wouldn't ER 5 be 16k?

Yes. The 16,000 gp is from the Ring of Elemental Resistance, Minor (DMG). The 144,000 gp is from the Ring of Universal Elemental Resistance, Minor ELH.

Most bonuses cost as the square of the ability, after all.

True, but ER doesn't seem to follow that.

Just wondering where you got your original price from.

DMG and ELH. Quite literally, the Universal ring is the cost of 5 rings of elemental resistance, minor, with the first ring the normal price and the other four being doubled, just like a belt that gives two different stat enhancements.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The elements are Acid, Cold, Electricity (or Lightning), Fire, and Sonic.

No, the elements are Earth, Air, Fire, and Water.

Acid, Cold, Electricity, Fire, and Sonic are five of the energy types, a category which also includes positive and negative energy.

Resist Elements does not protect against elements, but against one of the five common energy types. Likewise Endure Elements and Protection from Elements.

The spells are poorly named.

-Hyp.