Question on manifester level after maxing out a PrC

[NewJeffCT]

The guy playing the psion in our group designed his own prestige class a while back in the campaign. The PrC basically capped his powers to level 6 powers, though his overall manifester level increased at each level of the class so he could gain new powers. He was a Psion 7 when he switched over to the Prc and took 10 levels in the PrC. So, he when he was level 17 overall, his manifester level was 17, but he was capped at level 6 powers because of the PrC. However, when he was a Psion 7/PrC 2 he could take level 5 powers and psion 7/PrC 4, he could take level 6 powers. Edited to add: But, when he was psion 7/PrC 6, he could still only take max of level 6 powers, though he could still manifest them with 13 power points, if needed. If he was a straight psion 13, he would have been able to take level 7 powers. Similarly, at Psion 7/PrC 8, he was still limited to level 6 powers, though could use 15 power points and a psion 15 could have been using level 8 powers... and at Psion 7/PrC 10, he was still limited to level 6 powers where a straight psion 17 would then be manifesting level 9 powers.

However, now that he is level 18, he cannot take another level in his PrC and would switch back to psion. I'm not sure how it would work in terms of new powers.

Is he a psion 8 and limited to level 4 powers and the PrC is separate?
Or, now that he is out of his PrC, can he take level 7 powers?
Or, can he take any level power, as he is level 18 overall?

I can see each side of the issue here.

Thanks

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't know? Sounds like the PrC wasn't very well thought out, to be brutally honest.

The closest spellcasting parallel might be the PrCs that give their own spell progressions, independent of whatever the character had before. But that doesn't sound like how this one has been functioning up until now. How many levels has he been with level 6 powers now? I would just treat him as having psion advancement from here on out, as if he were a level 11 or 12 psion (depending on whether he's had level 6 powers for 1 level or 2+ levels). Thus, if he had them for 2+ levels, next level in psion would give level 7 powers. the prestige class effectively would have stunted his power advancement.

Probably the simplest way to handle it.

 

[Starbuck_II]

The PrC basically capped his powers to level 6 powers, though his overall manifester level increased at each level of the class so he could gain new powers. He was a Psion 7 when he switched over to the Prc and took 10 levels in the PrC. So, he when he was level 17 overall, his manifester level was 17, but he was capped at level 6 powers because of the PrC. However, when he was a Psion 7/PrC 2 he could take level 5 powers and psion 7/PrC 4, he could take level 6 powers.

However, now that he is level 18, he cannot take another level in his PrC and would switch back to psion. I'm not sure how it would work in terms of new powers.

Is he a psion 8 and limited to level 4 powers and the PrC is separate?
Or, now that he is out of his PrC, can he take level 7 powers?
Or, can he take any level power, as he is level 18 overall?

I can see each side of the issue here.

Thanks

Okay, so this Prc didn't advance manifester level power point/day from Psion. It did increase effective manifester though.
Basically: it was like Psionic fist: It had its own chart.
Psionic Fist :: d20srd.org


If the Prc didn't say: +1 level of existing manifesting class
Then it didn't increase highest level powers in psion.
The example is Elocater-
Elocater :: d20srd.org

So he is 7 Psion, adding another level is still only 8 Psion. He should go to another Prc.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I don't know? Sounds like the PrC wasn't very well thought out, to be brutally honest.

The closest spellcasting parallel might be the PrCs that give their own spell progressions, independent of whatever the character had before. But that doesn't sound like how this one has been functioning up until now. How many levels has he been with level 6 powers now? I would just treat him as having psion advancement from here on out, as if he were a level 11 or 12 psion (depending on whether he's had level 6 powers for 1 level or 2+ levels). Thus, if he had them for 2+ levels, next level in psion would give level 7 powers. the prestige class effectively would have stunted his power advancement.

Probably the simplest way to handle it.

Well, I had originally thought the campaign would finish up around level 13/14, so that might have been a consideration.

But, he has had access to level 6 powers since level 11, but did not get a level 7 power at level 13, a level 8 power at level 15, etc. He chose additional lower level powers at those levels.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Okay, so this Prc didn't advance manifester level power point/day from Psion. It did increase effective manifester though.
Basically: it was like Psionic fist: It had its own chart.
Psionic Fist :: d20srd.org


If the Prc didn't say: +1 level of existing manifesting class
Then it didn't increase highest level powers in psion.
The example is Elocater-
Elocater :: d20srd.org

So he is 7 Psion, adding another level is still only 8 Psion. He should go to another Prc.

The problem is that it did say +1 effective manifester level - he got the additional power points and new powers. They were just capped at 6th level, so when he went from level 15 to 16 (for example), he got new powers, they were just limited to level 6 or below. He could still augment a Crystal Shard for 15 points and do 15d6 damage.

 

[Elethiomel]

I would say that he could take powers from any level.
My reasoning is this:
The player followed the rules as normal when picking powers for his PRCed psion (number of new powers per level, capped by effective psion manifester level), with the additional restriction of maximum level 6 powers imposed by gaining the powers through the PRC.

I would rule that the restriction only applies when gaining powers through the PRC, because it is a restriction imposed on power gain from the PRC.

Now, the other way to look at it is that the PRC has imposed a cap of level 6 powers forever on the character - basically treat it as an unbreakable prerequisite to have levels in the PRC. I wouldn't rule this way because I'm not a RBGM.

 

[Herzog]

Did you say he created his own PrC?

As a DM, I'd (probably) never allow that. (unless I trusted the player and had a final say in the matter)

In this case, the final say seems to come after the fact, and is something that could have happened even if the DM had created the PrC, so let's take it from there.

You say the PrC advances the Psion class normally, except for the fact his powers are capped at lvl 6.
What other restrictions and/or benefits does the PrC have?
Does he keep profitting from those even if taking other (Prestige) class levels? (like the possibility to overchannel without dmg, temporary increase his manifester level some other way, etc.)

In that case, keep the cap.

If all benefits seem 'static' or directly related to the PrC levels (NB: larger selection of powers, bonus feats) you could drop the cap, or increase the cap in a way consistent with the Psion class (ex: your max power lvl should now be 8, it was capped at 6, so when you normally would increase max power to 9 you can now increase it to 7)

 

[NewJeffCT]

Did you say he created his own PrC?

As a DM, I'd (probably) never allow that. (unless I trusted the player and had a final say in the matter)

In this case, the final say seems to come after the fact, and is something that could have happened even if the DM had created the PrC, so let's take it from there.

You say the PrC advances the Psion class normally, except for the fact his powers are capped at lvl 6.
What other restrictions and/or benefits does the PrC have?
Does he keep profitting from those even if taking other (Prestige) class levels? (like the possibility to overchannel without dmg, temporary increase his manifester level some other way, etc.)

In that case, keep the cap.

If all benefits seem 'static' or directly related to the PrC levels (NB: larger selection of powers, bonus feats) you could drop the cap, or increase the cap in a way consistent with the Psion class (ex: your max power lvl should now be 8, it was capped at 6, so when you normally would increase max power to 9 you can now increase it to 7)

Well, I'm generally one to allow new things and it borrowed ideas from other psionic PrCs, so I didn't think it out of line at the time. However, I was not all that familiar with psionics at the time. It did give him some extra feats and skill points and the d6 hit die instead of d4, but had the cap of level 6 powers.

I later looked at his original writeup that said he can never progress further in his previous psionic discipline. However, I think allowing level 7 powers for the final encounter is okay, as the campaign has a chance to wrap up next session, if not the session after that.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Really, no matter what the PrC gave him. Just getting level 7 powers at ECl 18 is punishment enough IMO.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Really, no matter what the PrC gave him. Just getting level 7 powers at ECl 18 is punishment enough IMO.

well, most of the offensive/damage powers for psions can be augmented to be level appropriate as it is.

I mean, why manifest level 7 Ultrablast, which is a 15 foot radius power that does 13d6 when you can augment Energy Surge and do 13d6 in a 40 foot radius and you can choose your energy type (most creatures aren't immune/resistant to every form of energy.) Plus, you can get extra damage with Energy Surge by choosing Cold or Fire, or make it a tougher save with Electrical. Both powers are centered on the manifester. Unless you have allies that are 20-30 feet away and you worry about hitting them, Energy Surge is better.