Question on Tactics (Thunderspire Spoilers)

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Short answer?
No.

I've actually seen a PC go, "I want a save. There's no way I'm being pushed in this direction unless there's a hidden pit trap. I want a save!"

LOL - indeed.

As an added note, its kind of funny that a space that might do D4 damage is considered hazarouds and gives you a save to avoid going there, but being pushed into a spot where you would be flanked by 6 rogues all with combat advantage is not and does not allow a save.

And adding to my list of potentially hazardous terrain, do you get a save if you think the terrain but it is not? For example, if being pushed into an illusionary fire?

I suppose that one way of resolve it is to allow players a save whenever they are involuntarily moved, but I somehow suspect that it would impact them having fun if you were to allow monsters to do the same - its not much fun to have a combo fail because the target decides to fall down, especially if it was a challenge to hit it in the first place. On the other hand, it doesn't make much sense to allow the players to have core (as in non-ability/power/feature) tactical options that the monsters do not...


Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear

 

[Truename]

I suppose that one way of resolve it is to allow players a save whenever they are involuntarily moved, but I somehow suspect that it would impact them having fun if you were to allow monsters to do the same - its not much fun to have a combo fail because the target decides to fall down, especially if it was a challenge to hit it in the first place. On the other hand, it doesn't make much sense to allow the players to have core (as in non-ability/power/feature) tactical options that the monsters do not...

My players love pushing monsters into hazardous situations, so I've been thinking about this problem too. My current thinking is that "hazardous terrain" is anything that does massive damage. Not sure what "massive damage" is, but 5d10 counts (for my 4th level party) and 1d10 does not. (Maybe I'll use p.42 as a guideline... if it's a limited damage expression, or maybe above that, they get a save.)

For consistency's sake, I think I'll let them continue to get a save when knocked off a ledge, even if it's a small ledge that only does 1d10.

 

[On Puget Sound]

I let players and creatures save if they perceive a hazard. Smoking fire pit or edge of a cliff is obvious enough; a tactically unsound position (being flanked) is not. I picture the save as a desperate attempt to fall down and grab a piece of floor.

I'm also considering not allowing a save if pushed while already prone. It would make being prone a bit more meaningful. Picture the Klingon stomping on Kirk's fingers as he clings to the cliff.

 

[crantastic]

I suppose the question now is, while being immobilized means that YOU cannot move...can you be subject to forced movement?

<pre-rant>
well, i was just thinking that perhaps the designers who wrote the powers should be shot, and now that i've realized there's no longer a "Hold Person" spell, i know they should. </pre-rant>
<rant>of course, there may be one, hidden in the PHB, but who would know with that pathetic excuse for an index? one page of 6pt font?! so add another 50 cents to the damn book and give us something we can use! better yet, cut some costs by cutting the full-color, full page ad at the end!</rant>

....ok, better now....

I'm not sure if your transcription of the Infernal Moons Curse was accurate, but in the text you've presented it says "held immobilized." not the best grammar, and either this is a redundancy, or the target is under two or more effects: immobilization, restraint (which also includes immobilization), and possibly both helpless and stunned, since there's no longer a "held" or "paralyzed". I'm just going through the possibilities on PHB 277.

if they're simply immobilized, they're not helpless. they can still take actions and move via teleportation. unless the minions are >= 8' tall, how're they bull-rushing those who're being held 5' off the ground? dragging them by the ankles with their teeth? raising a hand to haul them along like a helium balloon? if so, what're they dropping to do it?

if they're restrained, then they can't be yanked about. to me, that's what the curse is doing, raising and holding fast a target that's writhing in agony from the poison. it says nothing about horizontal movement (c.f. Levitate, PHB 162) if the tactics section of the npc's doesn't discuss the caster lifting and then either him or his minions dumping chars into the pits using the technique you're considering, then i think you're misinterpreting.

i readily admit that it's a very appealing tactic!

finally, Catching yourself under "Forced Movement" on PHB 285-286 applies only to being pushed over an edge, causing a fall. so you can push people into bonfires and traps on the same level as you all day, but if they're 10' down, you can try to catch yourself. seems reasonable to me. and since it seems grinder combats are an issue in 4e, wouldn't you want to provide more opportunities to deal some damage without all those pesky saves?

 

[Danceofmasks]

We're not talking about catching yourself from the PHB.
Forced movement & hindering terrain. DMG p44 & p61

 

[legiondevil]

I'm not sure if your transcription of the Infernal Moons Curse was accurate, but in the text you've presented it says "held immobilized." not the best grammar, and either this is a redundancy, or the target is under two or more effects: immobilization, restraint (which also includes immobilization), and possibly both helpless and stunned, since there's no longer a "held" or "paralyzed". I'm just going through the possibilities on PHB 277.

if they're simply immobilized, they're not helpless. they can still take actions and move via teleportation. unless the minions are >= 8' tall, how're they bull-rushing those who're being held 5' off the ground? dragging them by the ankles with their teeth? raising a hand to haul them along like a helium balloon? if so, what're they dropping to do it?

The power was included in this thread exactly as written in the module.

As for the height issue, the PC is still in a square adjacent to the monster, and thus eligable for Bull Rush (horizontals, even vertically, are still only one square of movement after all). And yes, there are even large monsters in the encounter that could nullify the height issue (if it was one).

As for how're they doing it...I'm a big fan of "flying dropkick" to move them.

 

[Herschel]

That said, if falling isn't forced movement...

Sure it is. Have you ever fought gravity and won?

 

[Hazard_53188]

I'm going to come at this from a slightly different position. I'm not going to try to answer could you do this. Instead I'm going to try to answer should you do this.

This is already a pretty difficult encounter. My group just finished this last night and without using the tactic you described, it very nearly ended up with a TPK. It literally came down to a "you must hit now or we all die" roll.

Clearly your experience will very but you might want to consider keeping this in your back pocket until you get a feel for whether you'll need it to spice things up.

It seems to me from reading the encounter that the boiling cauldron damage was intended more to push the foolish than to be used to balance the encounter.

 

[Majushi]

From my reading of the thread, its eveyone's unerstanding that they wouldn't fall until the levitate effect ended.

That said, if falling isn't forced movement, then why should they get a save to avoid falling into the boiling pots? My understanding was that you only get a save if forced movement moves you into hazardous terrain...


Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear

Are you implying that gravity making someone fall is not forced?

And I would simply rule that the save would be to avoid the pot. Like Acrobatics or something...

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, if you check pages 284 and 285 PHB, "falling" and "force movement" are two seperate types of movement with seperate rules.

So, at least from a rules perspective, falling is NOT a type of forced movement.


Dr. Ruminahui - shrink with a spear