Question on the "Empower" metamagic feat

[Runestar]

Your own example shows how running empower that way is a mistake. It is right by the rules, but if interpreting it that way makes empower [+2 spell levels] stronger than maximize [+3 spell levels] for dice plus level based bonus spells then I fell there is a mistake.

Yes, but what you are explaining is more along the lines of why empower should not multiply the level-based constant bonus, not so much as to why it would not apply.

By the rules (as the magic missile example in the PHB has shown beyond reasonable doubt), you first add everything together, then multiply the final result by 1.5.

This is because 1d6+1 is simply the game's way of saying "any random number between 2 and 7". If you allow a player to take a blank 6-sided die, paint the numbers 2-7 on it instead, roll the result and then multiply the final number (which will be anywhere from 2 to 7) by 1.5, it makes no sense why the same treatment should not be given to "1d6+4". The designers likely only broke it down into the XDY+Z layout so we can easily arrive at the desired results using dice we own (d6s, d10s etc), rather than having to waste resources procuring customized dice.

I would say that empower is only situationally stronger than maximize. It appears that empower would be superior when applied to spells with a flat bonus (such as ray of enfeeblement). Conversely, if the spell in question involved only dice rolls (such as the myriad of direct damage spells like fireball), then maximize would deal more damage (and also has the side-effect of speeding up gameplay, since you don't need to roll any dice).

 

[concerro]

Yes, but what you are explaining is more along the lines of why empower should not multiply the level-based constant bonus, not so much as to why it would not apply.

By the rules (as the magic missile example in the PHB has shown beyond reasonable doubt), you first add everything together, then multiply the final result by 1.5.

This is because 1d6+1 is simply the game's way of saying "any random number between 2 and 7". If you allow a player to take a blank 6-sided die, paint the numbers 2-7 on it instead, roll the result and then multiply the final number (which will be anywhere from 2 to 7) by 1.5, it makes no sense why the same treatment should not be given to "1d6+4". The designers likely only broke it down into the XDY+Z layout so we can easily arrive at the desired results using dice we own (d6s, d10s etc), rather than having to waste resources procuring customized dice.

I would say that empower is only situationally stronger than maximize. It appears that empower would be superior when applied to spells with a flat bonus (such as ray of enfeeblement). Conversely, if the spell in question involved only dice rolls (such as the myriad of direct damage spells like fireball), then maximize would deal more damage (and also has the side-effect of speeding up gameplay, since you don't need to roll any dice).

Runestar is correct, and while it is true that empower spell can potentially do more damage than maximize spell it should also be taken into account that with maximize spell you know you will get the best results without even rolling the dice. I would rather gamble with the dice, but there times when you need to ensure a lot of damage right now, and maximize spell is good for those situations.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Thanks - is this in the SRD, explaining that variable in Empower means when you have to roll the dice?

Again - looking for the official reference that variable means where you have to roll the dice. The SRD itself does not specify, unless it is outside of the metamagic section.

Thanks

 

[Runestar]

Again - looking for the official reference that variable means where you have to roll the dice. The SRD itself does not specify, unless it is outside of the metamagic section.

Thanks

It is not stated outright, but implied in a few places.

The magic missile example in the PHB (which the SRD lacks) is one.

The 3.0 FAQ also touches on it briefly.

Since an empowered spell affects half again as many targets as its normal version, why doesn’t a 5th-level wizard’s empowered magic missile fire off more than three missiles?

Because the Empower Spell feat increases a spell’s variable, numeric effects. In the case of magic missile, that’s the spell’s damage, not the number of missiles. A spell such as sleep, on the other hand, truly affects a variable number of targets: 2d4 HD worth of creatures. An empowered sleep spell affects 2d4 times 1.5 HD worth of creatures.

 

[NewJeffCT]

It is not stated outright, but implied in a few places.

The magic missile example in the PHB (which the SRD lacks) is one.

The 3.0 FAQ also touches on it briefly.

However, a variable number of targets could also change 1 target every 3 levels to 1.5 targets every 3 levels. The number is variable based on the caster's level.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

However, a variable number of targets could also change 1 target every 3 levels to 1.5 targets every 3 levels. The number is variable based on the caster's level.

It's not variable when you cast it, though. A 5th-level caster will always have the same range, CL, and number of dice when casting a fireball, but the dice will give a different result every time you cast the spell. That's why it says "variable, numeric" instead of "variable" or "numeric".

 

[NewJeffCT]

It's not variable when you cast it, though. A 5th-level caster will always have the same range, CL, and number of dice when casting a fireball, but the dice will give a different result every time you cast the spell. That's why it says "variable, numeric" instead of "variable" or "numeric".

Yes, but it is a variable numeric that would change between a level 5 caster and a level 8 caster. If Wally the level 5 wizard cast Magic Missile, he would get 3 missiles. If Sally the level 7 Sorceress cast Magic Missile, she would cast 7 of them. Hence, the numeric is variable depending on your caster level.

Similarly, if Wally casts something that lasts 1/round level, his spell would last for 5 rounds, while Sally's would last for 7. Again, the numeric is variable depending on level.

While I agree with your interpretation, is there any official clarification that means a variable numeric applies to effects that involve a roll of the dice?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, Empower affects all of xdy +z, not just the xdy. The PHB makes that pretty clear in the magic missile example.

Does that mean Empower is better than Maximize sometimes? Yes. Is that such a big deal? In terms of opportunity cost of feats, Split Ray is mechanical almost always superior to empower. But it can only be used on a small portion of spells, so it's balanced. Empower is better on any d4 +z roll, but there aren't too many of those. (And in the case of time Stop, knowing when it will end via maximize is nice.) On a standard xd6 roll, or xd8 or more, Maximize gives a better total with no risk of low rolls, the differences increasing with the die size. Spells that deal d8's are much better maximized, higher level adjustment aside.

If anything, it's not that Empower is too strong. It's that maximize is too weak. I have never once in 3.5 felt it was ever worth the +3 levels or huge metamagic rod cost to get it. IIRC, in 3.0, both feats were a +2 level adjustment. Maximize should probably include some other small benefit to make it worthwhile at +3.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Yes, Empower affects all of xdy +z, not just the xdy. The PHB makes that pretty clear in the magic missile example.

If anything, it's not that Empower is too strong. It's that maximize is too weak. I have never once in 3.5 felt it was ever worth the +3 levels or huge metamagic rod cost to get it. IIRC, in 3.0, both feats were a +2 level adjustment. Maximize should probably include some other small benefit to make it worthwhile at +3.

Thx - perhaps adding to the save DC with Maximize, a la psionics? Some psionic powers have a much higher save DC than the equivalent spells, if you bump up the power points.

 

[Runestar]

While I agree with your interpretation, is there any official clarification that means a variable numeric applies to effects that involve a roll of the dice?

In case you missed it, I quoted an entry from the 3.0 FAQ which should address this issue.

An empowered magic missile spell does not produce more missiles (even though it, by your interpretation, should be a "variable" determined by caster lv). Only its damage (the only part involving dice rolls) is affected.

Which means that yes, empower spell has absolutely no benefit on the heal spell.