Question - On Tripping and Cleave

[BranWheatKillah]

I've recently started up a Pathfinder game for my friends and was presented with an interesting character concept I hadn't encountered before in my previous 3.0/3.5 experience.

One of my players made a character with a focus on the trip ability and has since begun using it every opportunity he can. It definitely caught me by surprise and trivialized a few of the encounters I had presented them with, but I took it in stride as a learning experience.

This brings me to a few questions.

1. When making an attack of opportunity, can you use trip?
2. When using cleave can you use trip for either or both attacks?

I read through the section of the Pathfinder guide on AoO's and combat maneuvers and by the rules, it appears to be legitimate. I know as the DM I can overrule anything I don't feel that works well with the game, but I don't want to force my player to change an entire character concept either - whether or not it's skewed toward a cheesier play style.

3. What can I do to make combat challenging while working around the trip ability?

I know it would make sense to occasionally have a NPC with an exceptionally high CMD or an ability that allows them to immediately get back to their feet, and I could also use monsters that have no discernible legs or have multiple sets of legs, but I want to approach the situation in a manner that isn't just me attempting to thwart his character's abilities, as I feel that's basically the same as telling him he can't do it in the first place.

So, with all that said, any answers and advice? Thanks.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

1. When making an attack of opportunity, can you use trip?
2. When using cleave can you use trip for either or both attacks?

1. Yes. But, note, that if you are making an attack of opportunity on someone for standing up from prone, you resolve the AoO before they actually stand up. Thus, you can't [meaningfully] trip them again - they're already prone. So, regardless of the AoO's results [at least, assuming they don't die from the AoO], they can stand up.

2. I don't believe so - or, at least, you could only use it for the second.

If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach.

If your attack roll equals or exceeds the CMD of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect. Some maneuvers, such as bull rush, have varying levels of success depending on how much your attack roll exceeds the target's CMD. Rolling a natural 20 while attempting a combat maneuver is always a success (except when attempting to escape from bonds), while rolling a natural 1 is always a failure.

Combat Maneuver checks, although they are attack rolls, do not hit or miss. Rather, they succeed or fail to hit a target DC - thus, if a trip attempt is made on the first attack of a cleave attempt, there is no hit (as required by Cleave) to trigger the second swing. Thus, you could only meaningfully apply a trip attempt to the second attack in a Cleave attempt.

3. What can I do to make combat challenging while working around the trip ability?

Trip works well against humanoids and enemies who are close in size to the tripping PC.

It works less well against quadrupeds, giants, etc.

Also, while the penalties for being prone are fairly harsh -- -4 AC, -4 on melee attack rolls -- they aren't insurmountable.

Also, remember that in order to be a decent tripper, you need a lot of investment. The basics are an Int of 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip; those get you a +2 bonus on your attempts, and make it so you don't provoke an AoO when attempting it. You don't even get to do damage while tripping until you invest further in Greater Trip, which requires a BAB of +6 - and even then, your opponents just provoke AoOs when you trip them, so you need a Dex of 12 or better and the Combat Reflexes feat if you want to do damage on more than one attack per round.

How is your player "trivializing a few of the encounters [you] presented"?

 

[BranWheatKillah]

How is your player "trivializing a few of the encounters [you] presented"?

Thanks for the quick response. I'll have to look into the wording issue for the cleave situation.

Basically, being that I hadn't encountered a player that relied so heavily on trip, or ever used it actually, the entire adventure I put together involved medium sized humanoids. It fit the scenario and story for what was being set up and I while I thought the encounters were moderately creative and challenging, they turned out to be significantly less so as each NPC was, one by one, taken down by a trip and brutalized.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Did you tend to have just a few, stronger enemies, instead of a large number of weaker enemies?

I assume that you mean that "taken down by a trip and brutalized" means that the PC in question would trip an enemy, and then everyone else would dogpile on the guy on the floor to benefit from the attack bonus and the free AoOs.

If so, having more badguys around - more targets, easier to prevent the PCs from ganging up - and more varied terrain - the party is split between three bridges, and can't easily mutually support - can alleviate some of that.

 

[SnowleopardVK]

Ah the tripper... I had one of those in my party in the first game I ever played. By the second session the GM started throwing lots and lots of oozes, flying creatures, and giant centipedes at us (in other words creatures that are either untrippable or essentially untrippable) to, as he said, "punish" the tripper for using the exact same maneuver in every fight.

So if you want to give them a bit of a challenge; oozes, flying enemies, and anything with a lot of legs. I believe it's +2 to the DC for each additional leg past 2 that the trip-target has. A dog gets +4, a spider gets +12, a centipede gets +196, etc.

Bugs tend to have lots of legs...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Centipedes don't actually have 100 legs, and even if the rules don't say so, I think there should be a limit to that bonus, sort of like how terminal velocity prevents falling damage above 20d6....

The trip mods in general are fricking stupid. Dwarves get +4, yet the feats were cut in half to +2. Large and Small had their modifiers dropped to 1/4 what they were in 3E, yet by Colossal they're at 1/2 what they were in 3E, an exponential progression. And then the 2 per leg rule, a HUGE change from 3E, where quadruped or higher pretty much just gave you a static +4. IMO, Trip check modifiers are some of the dumbest math in Pathfinder.

 

[DumbPaladin]

Also, while the penalties for being prone are fairly harsh -- -4 AC, -4 on melee attack rolls -- they aren't insurmountable.

Also, remember that against ranged attacks, there is no penalty to AC -- this penalty only applies to melee attacks, and bad guys can attack with a crossbow while prone at no penalty ... and some creatures are immune to being tripped.

 

[SnowleopardVK]

Centipedes don't actually have 100 legs, and even if the rules don't say so, I think there should be a limit to that bonus, sort of like how terminal velocity prevents falling damage above 20d6....

Hm, I didn't know that. I guess I learned something about centipedes today.

Regardless though, they still have a ridiculous number of legs compared to, say, a human.

 

[hippononymous]

I don't think you should start throwing in monsters that can't be tripped. That will ruin his fun. Instead, keep throwing humanoid minions at him, but accompany them with one or two big baddies that either cannot be tripped or are a lot harder to trip. Honestly, I think that's all you're missing.

I kind of ran into the same situation, except with spellcasters with offense-only spells that completely demolished everything. I fixed that by having my Drow "minions" accompanied by higher-level commanders with pet chimeras. So my players still get to enjoy themselves blowing up, but now have to think about how they'll deal with a hard hitter or two that can't be taken out by the same means.

 

[SSuser]

You don't have to go for the throat, but if you want to have a little fun at trip-boy's expense. You could add a side trek that will let the player know how you feel.

Here's an example. Picture a port city with a whale rendering fishery. Maybe an evil fishery even. *shrugs* Whale greases and oils have permeated the soils for years. Insert short side trek quest under the fishery. Make the entire mini dungeon as if under the effects of grease as well as difficult terrain. Dire rats maybe a little undead and for this adventure only, include things that will not fall prone easily. I'd even say that all creatures with claws or cleats get a bonus or simply resist falling prone in this environment.