Question regarding AoO's and Sunder

[Melkor]

Hi folks,

We had a situation come up in our game last night where a character aproached a monster wielding a reach weapon.

The character provoked an Attack of Opportunity with his movement, and for the attack, the creature decided to try and Sunder the character's weapon.

Sunder provokes an Attack of Opportunity - which immediately caused me to pause and say "How can an AoO provoke another AoO - something isn't right here".

So I was wondering, is a Sunder allowed if you are making it for an Attack of Opportunity "
If not, would the AoO Sunder still provoke an AoO from the character who's weapon is attempting to be Sundered ?

Thanks.

 

[werk]

Srd

Sunder

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.



It looks like he can...?
Make sure he's not using a piercing reach weapon.

 

[reveal]

From Rules of the Game: All About Attacks of Opportunity http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a

When an Attack of Opportunity Provokes an Attack of Opportunity

In some cases, you can make an attack of opportunity that provokes an attack of opportunity against you. For example, a foe runs past you, leaving a square you threaten and provoking an attack of opportunity from you. If you choose to disarm your foe, you'll provoke an opportunity from that foe (unless you're out of the foe's reach).

Attack of Opportunity Chains: If both you and your foe have multiple attacks of opportunity, the two of you could set up a whole chain of attacks of opportunity. For example, you try to disarm, provoking an attack of opportunity. Your foe responds by attempting to disarm you, and you respond with another disarm attempt.

When this situation occurs, simply allow both foes to keep going with attacks of opportunity until one of them either runs out of attacks of opportunity or chooses not to make any more. Keep track of all the attacks of opportunity each combatant provokes and makes. Resolve the final attack of opportunity in the chain first, and then work forward along the chain until you've resolved all of them or until one opponent's attack of opportunity foils the other's action.

 

[Melkor]

Thanks for the response! That answers that.

 

[reveal]

The other thing to consider is this:

You say the character moved through the threatened area of the creature with the reach weapon.

- - X - Y
1 2 3 4 5

Let's say that the X represents the character and Y represents the creature with a reach weapon. When X moves from square 3 to square 4, that is when he/she provokes. This is where the Y can try to Sunder. X is still considered to be in square 3 and, unless he/she has a reach weapon as well, X cannot take an AoO because X cannot reach Y. So the point is moot in this instance.

If you let X move to square 4 before Y decides to try an AoO, which is not what should have happened, then Y cannot make an AoO because a creature with a reach weapon does not threaten* the squares adjacent to themselves.

*there are some weapons which allow this to happen but they are Exotic and require a feat to use properly.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Remember that you can't respond to an interrupt with an instant. Oh, wait, they got rid of interrupts. But, you still have to worry about the stack, remember: Last In First Out (LIFO). And...

Oh this isn't a Magic: the Gathering discussion?


But, on topic, remember you can only take one AoO per round, barring Combat Reflexes and maybe some other things. It makes this much easier to deal with. You usually won't be getting long chains of disarm/grapple/sunder/etc to remember.

 

[sullivan]

Oh ya, another subtle difference from 3.0 that can make a big difference. In 3.0 you could never chain since even Combat Reflexes still only allowed one per opponent per round. But that limit was replaced in 3.5 with the limit of one AoO created by the opponent leaving a threatened square per opponent per round.

ThirdWizard: Are you saying that the defuncting of "interupts" allows me to take a Free Action, such as Quickdraw, before or after my AoO?

 

[Hypersmurf]

So I was wondering, is a Sunder allowed if you are making it for an Attack of Opportunity?

Well, the Table of Action Types has a nifty little footnote:
7 These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity.

... which shows which actions can be used as an AoO.

Trip, Grapple, and Disarm, with their action type of 'Varies'.

Sunder, on the other hand, is a standard action. And doesn't have footnote 7.

-Hyp.

 

[ThirdWizard]

ThirdWizard: Are you saying that the defuncting of "interupts" allows me to take a Free Action, such as Quickdraw, before or after my AoO?

You can't take Free Actions as part of an AoO. It was really a comment on similarities between D&D and M:tG. In M:tG if two people have a damage spell and are at 1 life, the first one to cast loses, generally.

The one to go first in this Sunder example is, theoreticlly, worst off. Say, you try to Sunder their weapon. They get an AoO and Disarm or Grapple you. Now your Sunder attempt is probably not going to work. If you both have Combat Reflexes, this can get a little crazy with tripping, counter tripping, counter-counter tripping, disarming, etc.

 

[Nifelhein]

Hyper always has a fianl saying wherever I go... tnx hyper.