Question regarding Sneak Attack

[Mercutio01]

Creatures like Beholders do not have limbs. Extremities (limbs) are not vital to the human anatomy, and can generally be removed without significant impact on the health of the individual.
Vital areas in D&D were explained very early on as the medically relevant term, not the martial term. I don't think they've had cause to change them since 1st Edition.

Eyestalks are limbs.

The femoral artery, located in the limb, is absolutely a vital area.

Now, since you said it was explained in 1E, please find and cite where. And you can't use the "backstab" rules, because that's different from the rogue's sneak attack. Backstab required facing and attacking completely unnoticed and only from the back, so I'm fairly sure "vital areas" is not located anywhere in those rules.

your knowledge clearly exceeds mine on the matter but I would say that a Heel Stomp would require the victim to be prone and I would ask if the player want to perform a Coup-de-Grace.

I mean heel stomp to the foot of a combatant.

A kick to the inside of the knee or a punch delivered to the Sternal Notch (the center of the Collarbone, I had to look it up) are both covered by armour on conventional troops but both are normal attacks and as such have a chance to critical and deal massive damage nothing more

(First, I misspoke when I said sternal notch. I meant sternum and the xiphoid process.) So, in your game, the only way to score a sneak attack, ever, is to attack---where exactly? How does a rogue qualify to deal a sneak attack in your game? If it's covered by armor then you can't sneak attack it? That's exactly what you said above.

I'm honestly curious about this now. The rules have a vague reference to vital areas with no specifics, but mechanically the only requirements that have to be met are denying the victim its dexterity bonus or flanking. There's no mention of called shots, which is what I'm inferring from your statement.

I'm a rogue and I want to sneak attack someone in your game. What do I have to do in that game to qualify for and execute a sneak attack? Is it different from "The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."?

 

[Piratecat]

The real issue here is that the gnome PC seems like he's getting screwed over for no particular reason. It isn't about rules justification, it's about what is fair, fun and cool. Denying the gnome sneak attack because he described it as a kick to the shin feels really petty to me. If I was that player, and I was denied my cool moment to shine because I said "shin" instead of "knee" or "groin", I'd feel disappointed with the DM.

This goes back to the DMing theory of making "yes, but..." the default response instead of "no." Denying the PC sneak attack because he said "shin" just doesn't make the game more fun for me. And if that's the case, why insist upon it?

 

[Omegaxicor]

There's no mention of called shots, which is what I'm inferring from your statement.

Yes, you are inferring, I said nothing (in fact I stated clearly the exact opposite) of the player assigning where he chooses to hit. What I said was the the D&D rules state that you must target vital areas, In My Opinion the shins could qualify but don't in this case

Denying the PC sneak attack because he said "shin" just doesn't make the game more fun for me. And if that's the case, why insist upon it?

Then you have a different DM style to me, I insist upon it for the simple reason that the rogue has chosen to try and slow the enemy rather than deal damage.

I would mention to the player that the shins are not considered Vital and if he argued I would ignore him, if he accepted that his character would be smart enough to aim for throat to 'silence him' then I would allow sneak attack

EDIT: I don't mean that the Rogue MUST target the throat, just that the Rogue would know where to target and not target a leg when their are better places.

EDIT 2: I am curious How you explain Eyestalks as limbs? I believe in a D&D sense, limbs are arms and legs, things used for reach, maybe I am wrong and I would like to know

 

[Mercutio01]

Yes, you are inferring, I said nothing (in fact I stated clearly the exact opposite) of the player assigning where he chooses to hit. What I said was the the D&D rules state that you must target vital areas, In My Opinion the shins could qualify but don't in this case

How is "targeting a vital area" not the same thing as a called shot? Next - why do shins not qualify in this case, and in what case would a kick to the shins qualify? I'm curious as to the reasoning, and that's clearly all that is happening here. The rules don't prohibit it: it's simply a case of DM preference.

I would mention to the player that the shins are not considered Vital and if he argued I would ignore him, if he accepted that his character would be smart enough to aim for throat to 'silence him' then I would allow sneak attack

What is your justification for a shin NOT being a vital spot? It's potentially crippling, painful as all heck, and, traditionally, the third area of the body armored (after head and chest), so ancient warriors and armorers must have disagreed with you on its vital nature. The tibia is the one bone closest to the skin with the least protection from muscles. It's a very obvious place to attack, particularly if you are short and attacking someone larger, and the potential for devastating damage is pretty high. Watch that clip from the soccer match again.

EDIT: I don't mean that the Rogue MUST target the throat, just that the Rogue would know where to target and not target a leg when their are better places.

I'm curious as to how you justify this. Is a groin or throat a better place to attack? How about the eyes or the solar plexus? How about the Achilles tendon or a kidney punch? What's the determining factor here, and how much of a difference does it actually make? Why is the player saying "shins" a barrier to the sneak attack where if he simply didn't mention anything at all NOT a barrier to sneak attack? It comes down to your personal opinion of what is and is not a vital spot.

EDIT 2: I am curious How you explain Eyestalks as limbs? I believe in a D&D sense, limbs are arms and legs, things used for reach, maybe I am wrong and I would like to know

Limbs are also not defined in D&D, but my justification is that an eyestalk has nerve endings and is just as vital to a beholder as a finger or hand would be to a human. Amputating either would have a similar sort of effect. The medical definition for a limb is "any jointed or prehensile appendage." Eyestalks are clearly jointed, must have muscles, tendons, and blood, and, additionally, have magical properties. If that's not a vital spot worthy of special attention for attacking, then I just don't know what is.

Really, what it all comes down to is playstyle. Clearly I'm more in the area that Piratecat is. Artificially nerfing sneak attack because of exactly one half a sentence of fluff, and nothing less than personal bias on what is and is not vital (since "vital spot" is never defined in any edition) smacks of petty DM-tatorship and not furthering the fun of the game. Ultimately, that's all it comes down to. Have fun playing your way, and I'll have fun playing mine.

 

[Greenfield]

As an anatonomical note, the shins are one of the few places on the body where there are bones at the surface, unpadded by muscle or fat. (The head is another.) Further, there's a nerve that runs along the side of that bone, also unpadded. A solid kick there can hurt like the Dickens.

 

[Dandu]

As an anatonomical note, the shins are one of the few places on the body where there are bones at the surface, unpadded by muscle or fat. (The head is another.)

The head is also, from my observations, not usually a vital area for most characters.

 

[Greenfield]

Would this argument have been avoided if the player had been less colorful and simply declared "sneak attack with unarmed strike. He gets no AoO because he's flat footed."?

Think about a Whisper Gnome (small, almost tiny) facing a Were Bear (Large) in his hybrid form? Where else can the Gnome even reach?

Okay, so I could say he bit him in the Achilles Tendon, tore at the Femoral artery or tried to dislocate his Patella (knee cap). Or maybe the player doesn't know anatomy that well. Do we penalize his character because the player isn't a Rogue with Sneak Attack?

It's a game. A fantasy game, to be specific. We use colorful language as part of role playing, and the the game mechanics sort the rest out.

I was just asking about the game mechanics anyway.

Oh, and thank you to those who supplied the game mechanics answers.

 

[Oryan77]

The problem here is that everyone is choosing other body parts to attack. Anyone knows that the only vital area we should attack is the junk. Always attack the junk. Even women don't want to get hit where they have no junk.

Why hit a shin when you can hit the junk? Want to make a guy go prone? Hit the junk. Need to stun a guy? Hit the junk. Sneak Attack? How bout his junk? Need to revive your unconscious buddy? Kick him in his junk.

The gnome should be docked XP for not automatically going for the junk and causing all these arguments.

 

[Mercutio01]

The head is also, from my observations, not usually a vital area for most characters.

But the eyes and ears, which are on the head, definitely are vital areas.

 

[Piratecat]

Then you have a different DM style to me, I insist upon it for the simple reason that the rogue has chosen to try and slow the enemy rather than deal damage.

Yep, I think that's true.

Anyways, Oryan has it right. ALWAYS aim for the junk. Then grab his wallet.