Question regarding Sneak Attack

[Binho]

Actually, you guys are being too realist. I think the real intend of the SA in the game is not where you hit, but HOW you hit to really hurt someone.
Let's say a monk hits the belly with a punch: that's gonna hurt. But if a rogue hit the belly with a SA, he is going for the vital spot, in case, i think its the plexus bow. That's gonna hurt even more.
If you hit the hand of someone, it will hurt. If an Aikido master hit the same person, he will kneel before him in pain.

Think about a Whisper Gnome (small, almost tiny) facing a Were Bear (Large) in his hybrid form? Where else can the Gnome even reach?

Johnny Cage has the answer.

 

[Gray Lensman]

You been kicked in the shins lately? I have. I can tell you, that area will suddenly seem much more vital than you ever thought.

"Vital spot" could certainly mean bones too ya know. Give something a compound fracture and it won't be happy.

And yes, shin hits are a #%&$%^

As an anatonomical note, the shins are one of the few places on the body where there are bones at the surface, unpadded by muscle or fat. (The head is another.) Further, there's a nerve that runs along the side of that bone, also unpadded. A solid kick there can hurt like the Dickens.

My Grandfather used to fix juke boxes (remember those) for a living in migrant farm camps. He carried part of an axe handle in his tool box and when a fight would break out he would break up the fight by cracking the participants in the shin. After everyone had fallen down, he would give them this speach about distracting him while he was fixing "their" juke box.
Rarely did he have to do it twice in the same camp.

 

[kitcik]

My Grandfather used to fix juke boxes (remember those) for a living in migrant farm camps..

This just proves you learn something new everyday.

I never knew migrant farm camps had juke boxes. Dang.

 

[kitcik]

It clearly says in the entry of sneak attack that you must yell "Sneak Attack" as you make the attack.

What about the rule that says yelling before you attack removes the flat-footed condition from your target? Another WOTC screw-up?

 

[kitcik]

Or he could just say "I sneak attack him" and keep the descriptions for himself after that

At this point, I would bring flash cards.

 

[kitcik]

If he says "I punch the guy in the foot" then I assume he is forfeiting his SA damage.

So, small PCs cannot SA colossal creatures? Quite a nerf.

EDIT: Wow. I was wrong on this. From the rules archive:
"Sneak attacks are possible only when the attacker can reach the target's vital spots. If you're limited to beating the foe about the ankles, you can't make sneak attacks against him."

EDIT #2: Note that criticals are defined as "A hit that strikes a vital area and therefore deals double damage or more. " Therefore, this whole argument relates to the ability to crit as well. So, if shins are not a "vital area" (that would not be my ruling, but let's just say), then the poor gnome not only loses SA, but his 20 won't crit either.


BTW, sorry for multiple posts = should have done multiquote. My bad.

 

[Omegaxicor]

The rules don't prohibit it: it's simply a case of DM preference.

which is what I said specifically

What is your justification for a shin NOT being a vital spot? It's potentially crippling, painful as all heck, and, traditionally, the third area of the body armored (after head and chest)

there is a difference between 'vital' and necessary, I judge Vital to mean that loss of it kills you, a broken shin would hurt like hell but not kill you.

Why is the player saying "shins" a barrier to the sneak attack where if he simply didn't mention anything at all NOT a barrier to sneak attack? It comes down to your personal opinion of what is and is not a vital spot.

YES that is what I am saying, if the player specifies an area that I consider NOT vital then s/he is giving up the characters superior knowledge of anatomy on where to target

The medical definition for a limb is "any jointed or prehensile appendage." Eyestalks are clearly jointed, must have muscles, tendons, and blood, and, additionally, have magical properties. If that's not a vital spot worthy of special attention for attacking, then I just don't know what is.

OK I concede the eyestalks are a limb, but a vital area maybe, maybe not

Artificially nerfing sneak attack because of exactly one half a sentence of fluff, and nothing less than personal bias on what is and is not vital smacks of petty DM-tatorship and not furthering the fun of the game. Ultimately, that's all it comes down to. Have fun playing your way, and I'll have fun playing mine.

"petty DM-tatorship" wow where did that come from, I am not suggesting you play my way, I am saying that while painful a broken shin is not vital, if that makes me an evil tyrant then your definition is wide indeed

Wow. I was wrong on this. From the rules archive:
"Sneak attacks are possible only when the attacker can reach the target's vital spots. If you're limited to beating the foe about the ankles, you can't make sneak attacks against him." Note that criticals are defined as "A hit that strikes a vital area and therefore deals double damage or more. " Therefore, this whole argument relates to the ability to crit as well. So, if shins are not a "vital area" (that would not be my ruling, but let's just say), then the poor gnome not only loses SA, but his 20 won't crit either.

exactly my point, you could Climb on the enemy and SA it and move on, but stabbing it in the foot is not a sneak attack

EDIT: I don't like definitions because they allow things I wouldn't and exclude things I would allow but yea the basic rule is that you die without it, I am curious what is your definition?

 

[Mercutio01]

EDIT: I don't like definitions because they allow things I wouldn't and exclude things I would allow but yea the basic rule is that you die without it, I am curious what is your definition?

Honestly, since that bit is fluff, I just ignore it. If a creature has discernable anatomy, is not immune to critical hits, and is denied is dexterity bonus or flanked, sneak attack damage applies. I'd allow a halfling sneak attack damage against a storm giant without a second thought. I'd allow this gnome the sneak attack damage against the jailer because it was both a sneak (the jailer had no idea it was coming) and an attack. His fluff of kicking at the shins doesn't affect the mechanics of the situation.

If you forced me to nail down a definition, I'd probably defer to pressure point charts, martial arts training targets, and the obvious areas like throat, eyes, groin, kidney, femoral artery, brachial artery, joints, and spine. A rogue is assumed to have been trained in all of that, and to know how best to affect each of those areas (bludgeon, slash, pierce) for the greatest impact.

EDIT - Sure. Like I said, I don't use the fluff as mechanics. Let me clarify a bit. If someone was going to sneak attack a captor by stomping on the bones of the foot near the toes, then absolutely that would be a vital spot.

I think we look at sneak attack as something different from each other. I see it as someone trained to provide the most pain possible (like they studied anatomy), but they have to catch their opponent off-guard. I don't see it as a backstab/assassin. Picture a doctor with his knowledge of blood vessels. In a straight up fight, a thug with a baseball bat is going to win. But in the proper circumstances, the doctor could stab through the foot in a way dumb thug with Louisville Slugger wouldn't be able to prevent.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

So, two things to take away from this thread:

1) As I've said before, ALWAYS play a martial rogue and swap that SA for feats. Nice, solid, tangible feats. Not some damage crutch that 1/3 of the monster manual is immune to and even when you can legally use it your DM is out to find "realistic" reasons to screw you out of it.

2) Never fluff your attacks. Ever. Roleplaying as a martial is badwrongfun. If you're a caster, your magic missiles can be translucent fists, your grease can be viscous demon's blood, your blobs of conjurered acid can look and smell like vanilla pudding, and your summoned unicorns can be painted in rainbow. But, don't you dare try to get creative with describing how your martial rolls a d20 and then damage! If you pick "wrong," it's the DM's job to punish you. "Oh, you try and kick out his knee? It's actually an artifical leg. You fail to sneak attack. Sucks to be you. Better luck next time."

 

[anest1s]

On the other hand, why shouldn't someone be able to sneak attack a skeleton? His anatomy is like totally obvious


I don't think the "encounter" would be more fun if the DM just said "no you totally get him by surprise but there is no vital spot there so you didn't even scratch him".

Also it wouldn't be fun if ppl had to roleplay how they use the healing kit for a specific injury they have no idea how to treat out-of-game or fail.

Or if they had to pronounce a long complicated phrase in order to cast a spell with verbal components or fail.

Or if they had to remember a different phrase for each spell they had prepared at the start of the session, and correctly pronounce it while someone is hitting them.