D&D 3E/3.5 Questions about 3.5 Wild Shape

[Dragon-Rider]

Greetings,

I recently started playing a Druid that reached level 5 and attained the Wild Shape ability. A couple of my friends play Druids in other games. With the way the Wild Shape rules work, it's not very easy to, on the fly, figure out what a character's new statistics are when using the Wild Shape ability. To assist with this, I decided to make a simple little Excel spreadsheet that would be able to calculate everything for us. A month later my "simple" project has evolved to the point where I'm trying to make it work sort of like how HeroForge does.

I've been trying to apply feats and multi-class abilities to the Wild Shape forms, but there are some that I have questions on. The questions I have are listed below. If any of you can answer these, I would be very grateful.

Thank you,
Dragon-Rider

P.S. I hope the Characters forum is the appropriate place for this post... It seems like the Rules or Feats forums could also be appropriate. I apologize if I picked the wrong forum.


1. Does a Monk's Speed bonus apply to all movement forms or only base land speed?

2. Are Wild Shape forms considered to be unarmored when they gain the AC bonuses from armor and shields with the Wild Enchantment (i.e. would Druid/Monks gain the Monk's unarmored AC bonuses and the Wild Armor and Wild Shield bonuses)?

3. Do Iron Will, Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexes stack with the Saving Throw bonuses from Familiars, with the Loremaster Secrets (Secret of Inner Strength, Secret Knowledge of Avoidance, and The Lore of True Stamina), and/or with a Blackguard's Dark Blessing? These are all un-named bonuses...

4. Does the Improved Natural Armor feat increase the Natural Armor bonus of Wild Shape forms, or does it only increase it for a character's natural form?

5. Does the Natural Armor gained from Dragon Disciple levels increase the Natural Armor bonus of Wild Shape forms, or does it only increase it for a character's natural form?

6. Can the Improved Natural Attack feat be taken for an attack that normally deals 0 (i.e. the arms attack of Octopi and Squid) or 1 damage (i.e. the bite attack of a Tiny Viper)? If so, what is the new damage of the attack? Also, can the Weapon Specialization feats be taken for these attacks to get them to deal 0+2 and 1+2 damage?

7. If the Improved Natural Attack feat is taken for an attack that normally deals 1d12 damage (i.e. the tail slap of Crocodiles and Giant Crocodiles), what does the attack's damage increase to?

8. If the Improved Natural Attack feat is taken for an attack that normally deals 2d4 damage (i.e. the claw attack of Dire Bears), what does the attack's damage increase to?

9. A Dire Tiger has the Improved Natural Attack (Claw) feat which makes its Claw attack deal 2d4 damage. Since this feat is not a racial bonus feat for a Dire Tiger, a Druid who Wild Shapes into a Dire Tiger would not gain the benefit of it. What would be the Claw damage of a Druid in Dire Tiger form who does not have the Improved Natural Attack (Claw) feat?

 

[Muaythaidaddy]

These are all good, well thought out questions. I look forward to seeing the forum sages answer them.

 

[jaelis]

1. Does a Monk's Speed bonus apply to all movement forms or only base land speed?

The FAQ (using sensible reasoning) indicates it applies to all forms of movement.

2. Are Wild Shape forms considered to be unarmored when they gain the AC bonuses from armor and shields with the Wild Enchantment (i.e. would Druid/Monks gain the Monk's unarmored AC bonuses and the Wild Armor and Wild Shield bonuses)?

It's not very clear whether you are considered to be "wearing" wild armor while in animal form or not. However, the fact that the ability makes a point of saying that the armor cannot be seen suggests to me that it is being worn. (If it were simply melded into your form as usual, why note that it cannot be seen?) So I would not let it work with a monk. But it's certainly a DM call.

3. Do Iron Will, Great Fortitude and Lightning Reflexes stack with the Saving Throw bonuses from Familiars, with the Loremaster Secrets (Secret of Inner Strength, Secret Knowledge of Avoidance, and The Lore of True Stamina), and/or with a Blackguard's Dark Blessing? These are all un-named bonuses...

Yes, unnamed bonuses from distinct sources stack.

4. Does the Improved Natural Armor feat increase the Natural Armor bonus of Wild Shape forms, or does it only increase it for a character's natural form?

It should apply whenever you meet the feat prereqs, thus whenever you are in a form with natural armor.

5. Does the Natural Armor gained from Dragon Disciple levels increase the Natural Armor bonus of Wild Shape forms, or does it only increase it for a character's natural form?

Only your natural form.

6. Can the Improved Natural Attack feat be taken for an attack that normally deals 0 (i.e. the arms attack of Octopi and Squid) or 1 damage (i.e. the bite attack of a Tiny Viper)? If so, what is the new damage of the attack? Also, can the Weapon Specialization feats be taken for these attacks to get them to deal 0+2 and 1+2 damage?

For an attack that deals 1 point, it certainly works. For an attack that deals 0, I think you have to decide if it deals zero because it is a non-damaging attack or because the creature is just too small. (For instance, a Medium net and a Fine dagger both deal no damage.) In the former case, INA and (probably) Weapon Spec wouldn't help. In the later case, they would. Which case applies will generally be a DM call. For the cases you mention though, I would let the feats work.

7. If the Improved Natural Attack feat is taken for an attack that normally deals 1d12 damage (i.e. the tail slap of Crocodiles and Giant Crocodiles), what does the attack's damage increase to?

3d6. A nice table is here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#weaponSize

8. If the Improved Natural Attack feat is taken for an attack that normally deals 2d4 damage (i.e. the claw attack of Dire Bears), what does the attack's damage increase to?

2d6.

9. A Dire Tiger has the Improved Natural Attack (Claw) feat which makes its Claw attack deal 2d4 damage. Since this feat is not a racial bonus feat for a Dire Tiger, a Druid who Wild Shapes into a Dire Tiger would not gain the benefit of it. What would be the Claw damage of a Druid in Dire Tiger form who does not have the Improved Natural Attack (Claw) feat?

1d6

 

[Folly]

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes
4. No, it increases the base natural armor of the creature (note: your base form needs natural armor to take it)
5. No
6. You cannot take the feat for a forms natural attack. If you a monk then you can take it for your unarmed strike.
7. Refer to 6. 1d12 goes to 3d6. Refer to weapon size chart in the equipment section.
8. Refer to 7. 2d4 goes to 2d6
9. Refer to 8. 2d4 goes to 1d6

Your DM can always decide to allow you to take one of the Improved feats. Though by default it should only apply to one form and not all forms. For really large(colossal+) weapon sizes you have to refer to the Arms and Equipment Guide, since the players hand book doesn't go large enough for some of the wackier builds.

If you want to focus on this aspect of the class, I would suggest four things.

First off have your various forms prepped ahead of time. This might seem like a daunting task, but for the most part you will only be using 3 or 4 forms.

Second, natural spell.... need more be said?

Third, Nature's Warrior is the best PrC for a shifter focus druid, with maybe some warshaper after finishing Nature's Warrior.

Fourth, Dire Bears are hot. You can use them once you have 11 wildshaping levels. Brown Bears are a nice alternative until you get to 11 wildshaping levels.

Edit: Jaelis is right about 4, but you still have to qualify in your base form for the feat. It is kinda fuzzy as to whether it 0 natural armor counts as having it or not.

 

[Folly]

On the Wild Armor issue:

[QOUTE=SRD]Wild: The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen.[/QOUTE]
This is altering how wildshaping normal works. Thus the wildshape functions as normal expect that he retains the armor bonus and it cannot be seen (which is how it is anyways).

The normal case is that the armor melds into the druid and becomes none functional. Since once in animal form you can put on barding, the armor you had while in human form is no longer being worn.

Further there is an enchant in the Complete Warrior, that lets you retain the armor bonus, but you are treated as wearing the armor (it is a +2 instead of a +3).

 

[akbearfoot]

Any DM who would let a monk/druid, or worse a pure druid with a monks belt gain both an armor bonus from wild armor and add his wisdom bonus to AC PLUS the natural armor of the forms is plain off his rocker. And I mean that in the nicest way possible...druids are already one of the most powerful classes in the game, they don't also need to be untouchable.

The point of the wild armor is so that your armor still protects you while wild shaping....since it doesen't change the actual armor bonus to anything other than an armor bonus(like deflection for example), obviously you must still be wearing armor...it just can't be seen.


If I were DMing I wouldnt even let a druid who was wearing regular armor that was melded into their form gain a monks AC bonus. Since they are still wearing armor, it's just temporarily absorbed. That is probably not RAW, but as far as balance goes it is certainly warranted. I imagine it that your armor and clothing become part of your fur or scales etc. It's still there it just doesen't work like normal while you're shaped.

 

[Suriah]

Let's start with normal armor, then address Wild specifically. Normal armor unquestionably does not count as 'worn' when a druid wildshapes, because everything the druid is wearing "melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional" (PHB II, p. 95, polymorph subschool explanation). You are not wearing armor any more than you are wearing the Cloak of the Mountebank that also melded.

Now, Wild armor. Wild armor reads: "The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen" (www.d20srd.org). The druid is no longer wearing the armor- it can no longer be seen is a clarification to ensure that DMs don't think the armor turns into barding. She does, however, keep the armor bonus of the armor, which is entirely different from wearing the armor. Monks, who cannot wear armor, can wear Bracers of Armors to get an armor bonus to AC. Druids wearing Wild armor retain the armor bonus of the armor, but are not actually wearing said armor because it melds. It merely does not become nonfunctional.

If that is not convincing enough, refer to the Beastskin armor enchantment from Complete Adventurer (p. 127). It is a +2 enhancement, instead of +3, and specifically states that the armor shifts and changes shape to fit the druid's new form. "...the beastskin armor becomes
a suit of armor fitted for your new form rather than simply merging with your body. The armor continues to grant its armor bonus, applying the appropriate armor check penalty, slowing your movement rate, and otherwise functioning as a suit of armor fitted to the new form." All of this information suggests that Wild does not do any of those things, which suggests that it is not worn at all, but rather provides an armor bonus to AC while not being worn. Monks, as previously shown, can use armor bonuses to AC while gaining their wisdom to AC as well.

Furthermore, I do not know that I would consider druids too powerful. They are powerful, but so is any other class when well built. Druids can specialize in one of three things, or if they try really really hard they can become good (but not broken) at two of them: shifting, animal companion, and spellcasting. A shifting druid gives up huge amounts of spellcasting and her animal companion is pathetic. An animal companion druid is literally an animal companion with a druid cohort who casts buffs. A spellcaster is not terribly effective when shifted and her animal companion is generally a free mount with lots of hit points.

Now, if a DM wanted to houserule that Wild and monk's wisdom bonus to AC weren't compatible, they are free to do so. But that DM must be aware that, by the RAW, that is an incorrect interpretation, and should probably allow their druids to substitute the cheaper Beastskin enchant for Wild.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Now, Wild armor. Wild armor reads: "The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape. Armor and shields with this ability usually appear to be made covered in leaf patterns. While the wearer is in a wild shape, the armor cannot be seen" (www.d20srd.org). The druid is no longer wearing the armor...

If he's no longer wearing the armor, he's not 'the wearer', and doesn't preserve his armor bonus while in a wild shape.

If he is wearing the armor, he's 'the wearer', and preserves his armor bonus while in a wild shape, but loses the monk's AC bonus.

It's only 'the wearer' who benefits from the armor ability.

-Hyp.

 

[Dragon-Rider]

Wow. Thank you all very much for your responses! You've really helped me a lot. I can now fix the spreadsheet so that it applies these rules correctly.

The Wild Armor Enchantment is still confusing me though. The Enchantment states that only the Armor Bonus and any Enhancement Bonus is added to the new form's Armor Class. It would seem to me that if the armor was still considered as being worn while shape shifted, wouldn't other armor enchantments (like fortification, energy resistance, etc.) also carry over? Wouldn't the Armor Check Penalties, movement penalties, and Maximum Dexterity Bonus also apply? On the other hand, if you aren't actually wearing the armor, how do you get the AC bonus from it? This one makes my head hurt...

Thank you again for answering my questions. You all are just awesome.
~Dragon-Rider

 

[Will]

You know, it occurs to me that clothing with beastskin enchant might be a great way to serve as a foundation for enchants that work in wildshape.

Consider:
+1 beastskin robes, total AC: +1, 9000 gp
Put monk's belt 'in' the robes. 22400, +4500 (because original enchant is now +50% for multiple enchants).
Rinse, repeat with other enchants.

Sure, you pay a certain effective surcharge, but for the benefit of actually having enchants in wild shape, it seems worth it.

Anyone think my logic is flawed?