Questions about Arcana Unearthed/Evolved Class Roles and Balance

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Though I feel shame at the correctness of Crothain's last comment:

It does help to think of the witch as a sort of domain based cleric.

 

[Merlion]

Champions- also "tanks"- basically a more customizable "paladin", though their powers are more focused on heavy combat than the Paladin (most of the Champion's magical abilities directly impact their abilities in battle- conjuring weapons and armor, boosting their physical stats temporarily, etc)

Thats another one I pretty much figured, and that I like very much. I prefer the Champion to the Paladin in nearly every way but what you mention is especially nice...their special abilities actually make them better warriors

Runethanes are more or less a dedicated caster class- while they only have LVL 1-7 spells, their runic "superspells" give them magical power on par with the Magister (if not the spell selection), at least in my experience.

I've gotten the impression that the Runethane is especially good as a character who sets up a battlefield before the battle, given that there runes must usualy be placed, and many are triggered. It seems like they'd be awfully good at "buffing" also

The Witch is sort of the "Bard" of the setting- moderate combat abilities, moderate spellcasting, and a selection of special abilities.

Hmmm so a Witch can indeed be viable as a sort of fightning spellcaster as well? They do have medium BAB of course. Although most of their special abilities are non-support, or support only for they themselves unlike the Bard who's special abilities boost the whole party. Most of the Witcheries are either attacks or personal defenses or utility effects, many of which are pretty similiar to existing spells so I just dont know for sure how those would fit.

I guess as spellcasters a lot would depend on your witch type, and which manifestations you choose

Totem Warrior fills the "ranger" role, to some extent, though they tend to be more focused (and are more customizable) than the ranger... similiar to the way the Champion mirrors the Paladin

I guess Totem Warrior is one where really a lot of your role would be dictated by your totem animal

Ritual Warriors- another fighter class. Don't let the moderate BAB fool you, they can dish it and take it with the big boys. Rituals, especially at high levels, are not to be underestimated.

I dont have AE so I'm not really terribly familiar with the Ritual Warrior

Any that have been missed

Greenbond, Mageblade, Akashic, Oathsworn


The Greenbond is pretty obvious...support and healing is going to be their strongsuite. Mageblade is interesting tho since nobody has ever really done a melee/magic core class before. I'm kind of wondering how good they really are at either half, wether it tends to be better to focus on one or the other, etc.

Akashic is a pretty unique class to, and I guess your role would depend mostly on your choice of abilities.

The versatility is what I love about the system. You could have two characters playing the same class, yet compleatly diffrent focus and style. Granted, some classes do this more easily, but all AE classes can to some degree

I agree. What I am curious about tho is the natural mechanical inclinations of the classes. Even tho it is much easier to do anything with any class in AU, certain classes are still going to tend to be strong or weak in certain areas. Of course one thing that makes it hard to do what I am trying to do is that so many of the AU/AE classes come in different flavours (Witch, Totem Warrior, Champion for instance)

It's a bit of a shame that the new and orginal classes have to be described in terms of the core classes

Why is it a shame? Its just a point of reference, a way of describing.

 

[SWBaxter]

Question 1: Although I understand that many AU/AE classes are designed specfically and relatively obviously with certain mechanical class roles in mind

Well... kind of. The Warmain, the Unfettered, and the Mage Blade certainly are designed as the armoured fighter, Dex-based fighter, and fighter/spellcaster respectively. Otherwise, not so much - one of AU's strengths is that many of the classes are multirole. The Witch, Totem Warrior, and Champion all are strongly influenced by the particular sub-category a player chooses for them. A witch can "act like" a healer, or a paladin, or a wizardly type, etc. depending on the witchery abilities chosen and the character's personality. So I'd say it's actually a bit difficult to map directly from D&D to AU - a cleric character could easily be represented as a Greenbond, or a Witch, or a Mage Blade, or maybe even a Champion, depending on what aspect of the character's abilities and personality you want to emphasize.

Question 2: Your opinion of the balance of AU/AE, mainly in terms of the classes and their balance with each other, and the magic system/spells

I've found it pretty good, but I've only run parties up to 8th level or so - I have no idea if it's balanced at higher levels. Before then, I found that everybody tended to have a decent set of abilities. Spellcasters seem to have the most fun early on, with all the options for heightened and diminished spells, weaving slots, templates, and so on, but the non-magical types seem to make up for it by around 5th level as they get some cool abilities and options.

 

[Khairn]

In our experience, the question of "balance" within AU has to include the setting as well. Many of the special abilities of the classes and races are dependant (in one form or another) on how the GM handles such things as ceremonial feats. When I was lax with the social and ceremonial aspects of the game my players took advantage of that, resulting in some gaining power quicker than others and creating an imbalance.

This was a lesson that as a GM I made certain to pay more attention to in the future.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

The AU/AE classes are well balanced for a) interesting things to do, b) providing new and fun ways to quantify certain character "types" or create new ones and c) working within D&D as a whole. What I mean by quantifying certain types is the akashic, who is finally a "skill monkey" without having the music or magic of the bard or the sneak attack of the rogue. The unfettered is a great swashbuckler type. The mageblade fills the fighter/magic user niche really well.

They're all a blast to play. They are not all "equal" in terms of combat because not eeveryone is meant to be a combat machine. But they all shine in their niche, and get more interesting abilities as they grow in power. (I've seen people much more interested in playing an AE PC up to 20th level than in core D&D.)

The spell system is also a dream compared to fire and forget. I always chafed playing a wizard with the memorization restrictions. You had to take some stuff knowing you'd have useless slots at the end of the day. With "spells readied", it's entirely different. The biggest problem is actually that you run out quick at low to mid-levels because casting is so flexible.

 

[Merlion]

The Witch, Totem Warrior, and Champion all are strongly influenced by the particular sub-category a player chooses for them. A witch can "act like" a healer, or a paladin, or a wizardly type, etc. depending on the witchery abilities chosen and the character's personality. So I'd say it's actually a bit difficult to map directly from D&D to AU - a cleric character could easily be represented as a Greenbond, or a Witch, or a Mage Blade, or maybe even a Champion, depending on what aspect of the character's abilities and personality you want to emphasize.

I figured that'd be the case, I'm just wondering if the classes still tend to have mechanical leanings towards certain roles. Of course trying to determine that is made even harder by the fact that many of the classes come in different flavours. The Witch especially...a Witch's mechanical role tendencies are probably going to be determined largely by what type of Witch they are.


I'm still especially curious about the Runethane though...its another one thats not really like any other existing class. And the Mageblade has never really been done before as a core class.

They're all a blast to play. They are not all "equal" in terms of combat because not eeveryone is meant to be a combat machine. But they all shine in their niche, and get more interesting abilities as they grow in power. (I've seen people much more interested in playing an AE PC up to 20th level than in core D&D.)

Yea I pretty much figured that. Its probably largely because most DnD classes (especially in 3.0) offer very little in the way of class abilities...you dont really get much as far as new stuff, just more of what you already have, whereas most AU classes continue getting new and interesting stuff all along.


Balance wise I figured all was probably well, I just wanted to be sure there were no drastically whacky classes balance wise (like the Cleric and the Sorcerer in D&D)

 

[Odhanan]

I am still curious as to actual in play experiences of which role or roles the classes of AU/E seem to fit into.

It's a bit hard for me to understand your question.

You want our feelings about the classes of AU/E? They're great. Compared to PHB classes, they tend to be more open to player interpretation and ideas at character creation but much more specialized in practice, which doesn't have bad consequences on the gameplay (unless you only have warmains in your party but hey, same thing goes for D&D).

Question 2: Your opinion of the balance of AU/AE, mainly in terms of the classes and their balance with each other, and the magic system/spells

Everything's perfectly balanced. Much more so than in D&D, if you ask me. It's particularly true for the magic system which is versatile and open compared to D&D's yes, but also has many overpowered spells out of the picture (like magic missile, disintegrate and other "save or die" effects). Weaving and lading spells, the spell templates one can access through Feats, it's all built with precision and gives a variety of choices in spellcasting unmatched I think in D&D.

 

[Merlion]

It's a bit hard for me to understand your question

Ok let me put it this way. Generally, in these kinds of games, a classes features and mechanics make it well suited to certain mechanical roles and/or badly suited to others. For instance, Fighters and Paladins tend towards being the "tank" types in combat since they have heavy armor and lots of hitpoints, whereas Rangers and Rogues tend to go for more of a hit and run, trying to deal damage sort of tactic because they have low ACs and few hitpoints


Likewise, Wizards tend to act as offense and utility magically, whereas (in theory) Clerics focus on healing and support.

Or like how a Bard is best suited to enhancing the abilities of the party because of his spell selection and Bardic Music.



I am curious with the AU/AE classes, what sort of role each of them tends to be most mechanically inclined toward. Some are obvious...a Greenbond's strongest ability overall is healing. Likewise a Warmain is going to be the "tank".

Some are a bit harder tho. The Witch, Runethane, Mageblade and Akashic especially are harder to place. I'm just curious what directions the various classes abilities tend to point them in.

 

[Odhanan]

Thanks for the precisions, Merlion.

Witch and Mageblade are in the grey areas, so to speak. Witch is more focused yet less powerful than a magister, but can do more fighting. The Mageblade is the archetype of the fighter/mage of D&D (the same way, the Unfettered is the archetype of the fighter/rogue). It has useful spells and is good with its athame (chosen weapon bound to him). The Akashic is the most versatile of all characters. Its focus is skills, skills, yet more skills. It can be a loremaster (with impressive Knowledge boni a DM has to tailor carefully), or a "bard"/performer, or the sneaking thieving kind of character. It's the ultimate "Jack of All Trades" with a twist (and what a twist!): the Akashic Memory - he gets his ability by being close to a plane where all the experiences and memories of all beings mingle and can "tap" in this reserve to fuel his versatility by being good at something temporarily.

With the DM screen comes a booklet explaining how to recreate different roles with the classes of AU. If you get Arcana Evolved, these tips are included in the class description (descriptive paragraph named "Roles" for each class). So you're not left alone in your interpretations of the classes.

 

[Merlion]

Witch and Mageblade are in the grey areas, so to speak. Witch is more focused yet less powerful than a magister, but can do more fighting. The Mageblade is the archetype of the fighter/mage of D&D (the same way, the Unfettered is the archetype of the fighter/rogue). It has useful spells and is good with its athame (chosen weapon bound to him). The Akashic is the most versatile of all characters. Its focus is skills, skills, yet more skills. It can be a loremaster (with impressive Knowledge boni a DM has to tailor carefully), or a "bard"/performer, or the sneaking thieving kind of character. It's the ultimate "Jack of All Trades" with a twist (and what a twist!): the Akashic Memory - he gets his ability by being close to a plane where all the experiences and memories of all beings mingle and can "tap" in this reserve to fuel his versatility by being good at something temporarily.

Hmm. This is pretty much what everyone seems to be saying. With Witches, I guess its going to depend on what kind of Witch you are and wether you choose to make use of their semi deccent melee abilities. For instance a Wood Witch or Wind Witch is probably a better support magic character whereas a Winter Witch would be better for offensive magic, and an Iron Witch would be best if you do want to do the combat thing.


With the Mageblade I guess what I am really wondering is if the class is capable of really mixing its focus between magic and melee or if you need to focus on one or the other to be effective.


I figured with the Akashic that they might be a little better at stand up melee than a rogue since they have more hit points and can take some pretty nice combat abilites


the Runethane is another I'm very curious about as its a class that apeals to me a great deal. Of course there spell selection is general...and I guess maybe their runes would head toward a role as a buffer or a guardian sort of thing.


Also remember that I do have the book, so I know how the classes work, but oftentimes it takes actual play to know what roles a class really gravitates towards.