Questions about lion totem

[calighis]

Premise;
Lion totem is a class feature substitution in Divine Champion for Barbarian. In short it allows the barbarian to substitute lions pounce for increased speed, as well as other substitutions no where near as good.
Lions pounce allows your character to make a full attack at the end of a charge.

Premise;
Spirited charge allows you to deal 2x normal damage when mounted and charging. Employing a lance increases this multiplier to 3x.

Would I be allowed to combine lions pounce and spirited charge? Would all of my attacks be 3x damage in that case or just one of them?

 

[Darklone]

Sure it's allowed. All attacks with the lance are at *3.

 

[calighis]

This seems a little unbalanced to me. Items like bracers of quick strike and boots of haste, allow for early level broken stuff to occur.
Take for instance centaurs. A centaur gets x2 multiplier on charging lance attacks. By third level he spends the 1400 to get bracers of quick strike and takes a level in barbarian to get the pounce. He also has a level in fighter and opts for monkey grip. His first level monstrous feat is powerful charge.
All told this means he is using a large lance to deliver 6d6 +12 damage (assuming his strength is 18, raging + Bulls strength makes this alot higher) potentially twice a round.

I don't think I want my PC's running around with this kind of power at third level. I would house rule that additional attacks do not get the multiplier on a pounce.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, for a start, a centaur has 4 racial hit dice and an LA of +2, so with a single level in barbarian, he's considered a 7th level character. With a level in fighter as well, he's an 8th level character.

Apart from that, the simplest rule to introduce is "No Totem Barbarians".

Following that, a close examination of the Pounce wording is interesting.

A charge begins with a movement portion, and ends with a single attack. The charge isn't over until the attack has occurred.

Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

So you make a charge - move and a single attack - and then you follow the charge with a full attack. Once the initial attack has occurred, you are no longer charging; then the full attack happens.

So your 8th level Barbarian/Fighter Centaur charges, and makes a single attack at 6d6+12. Following that, he makes a full attack including Bracers, but since he is no longer charging, they don't get multiplied, and are made at 2d6+4 each.

(Also note that Centaurs, as Large creatures, use Large weapons normally. If he's using Monkey Grip, he can use a Huge lance.)

-Hyp.

 

[Jhaelen]

Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

So you make a charge - move and a single attack - and then you follow the charge with a full attack. Once the initial attack has occurred, you are no longer charging; then the full attack happens.

Hmm. So, a charging creature with pounce and a BAB of +16 using a weapon would get 5 attacks? First a single attack at +18 and then its normal full attack (4 attacks at +16/+11/+6/+1)? Odd.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hmm. So, a charging creature with pounce and a BAB of +16 using a weapon would get 5 attacks? First a single attack at +18 and then its normal full attack (4 attacks at +16/+11/+6/+1)? Odd.

Based on the phrasing of Pounce, yes. I suspect what they intended was "Instead of the single melee attack which is an inherent part of a charge, make a full attack", but instead they said "Follow the charge with a full attack", and the charge that you're following with a full attack includes a single attack.

-Hyp.

 

[calighis]

Is the attack from the charge considered the opening attack in your full attack action or, if you can make 2 attacks a round, let's say, could you deliver the charge attack and then get 2 more?

 

[Slaved]

Well, for a start, a centaur has 4 racial hit dice and an LA of +2, so with a single level in barbarian, he's considered a 7th level character. With a level in fighter as well, he's an 8th level character.

Apart from that, the simplest rule to introduce is "No Totem Barbarians".

Following that, a close examination of the Pounce wording is interesting.

A charge begins with a movement portion, and ends with a single attack. The charge isn't over until the attack has occurred.

Pounce (Ex): When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

So you make a charge - move and a single attack - and then you follow the charge with a full attack. Once the initial attack has occurred, you are no longer charging; then the full attack happens.

So your 8th level Barbarian/Fighter Centaur charges, and makes a single attack at 6d6+12. Following that, he makes a full attack including Bracers, but since he is no longer charging, they don't get multiplied, and are made at 2d6+4 each.

(Also note that Centaurs, as Large creatures, use Large weapons normally. If he's using Monkey Grip, he can use a Huge lance.)

-Hyp.

At least that means a First Level Character can actually get some use out of the Pounce Ability!

Otherwise it is sad until Level 6.

 

[moritheil]

I don't think I want my PC's running around with this kind of power at third level.

Why would they be only third level if they're centaurs? Don't they have LA of at least +2 as well as racial HD? I'm pretty sure centaurs start at ECL 6 or so . . . and would probably be a little higher if they had to get those class levels.

At ECL 6+, mages can do 6d6+ area damage with a fireball, several times per day. So it's not so bad.

 

[calighis]

Have you noticed the way that Thrikreen levels are evenly divided into class levels and Monstrous humanoid levels? Check out Complete Psionic.
Why don't they have that kind of template handy for Centaur? Why can't I divide some of my levels up. The reason given in races of the wild is that its to ensure that characters don't just take some of the levels in order to gain the best benefits and then abandon it.
I have a similar house rule. Basically any character that starts with a level of monstrous humanoid can take two class levels thereafter but no more than two until they have completed the monstrous humanoid levels. This really goes a long way in balancing it out to because frankly a third level character with 2nd level HP is not very survivable. But don't tell that to the people that wrote races of the wild.
Also in races of the wild it doesn't mention the Centaurs inherent ability to do 2x damage on a charge.