Questions about/Problems with PHB II

[Nightfall]

I guess I always thought Lyande being as close to a powerful fighter/mage as any in Thieves World. I keep forgetting someone might be exaggerating her prowess. But you are right, it wasn't like she was able to take on say Roxanne or Enas Yorl in a fight. Those guys were just that damn good.

Okay you convinced me Smurf.

 

[RigaMortus2]

The idea behind those alternate fighter abilities seems weird to me. Why not just make them feats? Then a player can decide to choose them as a feat or not. Actually, isn't that what they are doing anyway? What's the difference between making them alternate abilities that burns a feat, rather than making them feats which also burns a feat?

 

[Whimsical]

As someone who has played a fighter/sorcerer/spellsword, I found that if I had time for my character to buff up, she could be more powerful than a single-class fighter of the same level. If she was ambushed or attacked after her buffs are gone, such as while camping, she was less powerful. And I found that to be balanced. A fighter's power is up 24/7, my character's power was not. But at certain times, it surpasses the fighter's power. Somewhat like the power of Sneak Attack.

 

[Nightfall]

Sneak attack though is the rogue's bread and butter. If they can't use it, they start to feel very useless.

 

[Victim]

The idea behind those alternate fighter abilities seems weird to me. Why not just make them feats? Then a player can decide to choose them as a feat or not. Actually, isn't that what they are doing anyway? What's the difference between making them alternate abilities that burns a feat, rather than making them feats which also burns a feat?

If they were feats, Barbarians and the like could pick them up easily, unless they slapped another "must have X fighter level" prereq on them.

 

[Banshee16]

Interesting. You can't use Combat Expertise with any of those options, either.



Not if you're the same level, surely?

Are you suggesting there should be a FMage base class, such that a 10th level FMage class fights as well as a 10th level Fighter and casts as well as a 10th level Wizard?

I can see a 15th level FMage fighting as well as a 10th level Fighter and casting as well as a 10th level Wizard, but when the levels are equal, the specialists should be better than the generalists within their own speciality.

Lythande might be a fighter and a mage, but if she beats a straight fighter in a non-magical fight, it's because she's several levels higher than he is. If she outcasts a straight caster in a magical duel, it's because she's several levels higher than he is. If she comes up against a caster who's been practising magic just as long, but who kept practising magic every time she did sword drills, he should be better than she is at casting!

-Hyp.

I think that's the difference between fantasy fiction, where the author isn't constrained by balance issues, and an RPG.

Look at Wheel of Time. Rand 'al Thor is a....what, 20 year old kid, who is a better fighter than all the fighters in the land, and a better channeler than the rest as well.

Particularly in your 4-man party of D&D adventurers, you can't simulate that very well, because that would mean either one character is way more powerful than the other PCs, or he's not as powerful as he's supposed to be according to the fiction.

In my original post, I was not trying to convey that I think a warrior-mage should be as good at either ability as a single-classed member of either class. That's not what my concern abou the Duskblade was. I specifically mentioned that they appear to have some very cool class abilities. The spells were the issue. But I hadn't seen the full spell list. I'm more comfortable with the class now. I'd still prefer a few more spells on that list....some to protect against magic, maybe a few more blasting spells, etc. But I think overall it's pretty good...much better than my initial opinion.

As to the statement that it doesn't make sense for them to have full BAB plus spells, let's not forget that a fighter doesn't just get full BAB. He also gets d10's instead of d8's, he gets 11 bonus feats, and he gets weapon specialization.

I think the Duskblade is more akin to the Ranger or Paladin than he is to the Fighter in any case. He's got a full BAB, he has d8's, no specialization, he's got a few special abilities, and mid-range spellpower, topping out at lvl 5....though some of those lvl 5's are actually lvl 6 from the wizard list.

Compare against a Paladin who gains d10's, 4 skill points, several special abilities, and lvl 4 spells, or a Ranger, who gets d8's, 6 skill points, several special abilities, and lvl 4 spells.

The Duskblade might not fare too poorly in comparison at all. I'll be taking another look tonight.

The Beguiler actually seems pretty cool, and *that* I hadn't expected.

Banshee

 

[frankthedm]

Sneak attack though is the rogue's bread and butter. If they can't use it, they start to feel very useless.

That is a misconception many of those who overly favor rogues have. Enough creatures exist that are immune to sneak attack and enough ways exist to avoid and negate sneak attack that anyone going into a dungeon with that attitude deserves disappointment. Their bread is their skill points, sneak might be their butter, it might be their jelly, though I think it is more of the delicious sausage that if you go for too much of, it will kill you [angry monster full-attack being the equivalent of a heart attack].

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Full BAB classes with interesting abilities or spell lists make very attractive dip classes. This issue comes up in balance discussions for the Soulknife -- if it were a little stronger dipping becomes almost a no-brainer for melee specialists in order to cherry pick Psionic feats. Same story with spell lists -- even the ability to use wands or a few scrolls is not a small thing.

 

[Legildur]

Interesting. You can't use Combat Expertise with any of those options, either.

And because of that, they suddenly lose value to me.... A fairly standard tactic of one character of mine is to stand there using all 5 allowable points of BAB to boost AC through the Combat Expertise feat whilst using the Whirlwind Attack feat. Seems to work really well for me.

It's a shame that those replacement abilites (at least one of which is specifically defensively oriented) can't be combined with Combat Expertise.

 

[glass]

If they were feats, Barbarians and the like could pick them up easily, unless they slapped another "must have X fighter level" prereq on them.

And if they do that, they are really class abilities in feat clothing, so its better IMO to call them that.


glass.