Questions about prostitution

[fusangite]

Pre-modern societies which prohibit (as opposed to frowning upon) prostitution are rare. So, because I work very hard to give my games a pre-modern feel, prostitution is ubiquitous in my games. That said, I can't think of a time in the past 2 years since I went back to D&D that my PCs have interacted with a prostitute.

I know that most D&D games are not pre-modern in feel but instead entail modern people wandering around in a low tech, magic-rich world and so I can understand why this question comes up. But if you are seeking that pre-modern game feel, criminalizing prostitution is a real problem. Two main reasons for this are: (1) pre-modern societies, if they disapproved of prostitution, as many did, would express this disapproval throughh extra-legal community sanctions or religious sanctions; (2) some pre-modern societies were very unclear about where prostitution stopped and started -- many would reinterpret dating, attentive waitressing and other phenomena we see as pretty benign as lesser types of prostitution.

 

[jgbrowning]

Pre-modern societies which prohibit (as opposed to frowning upon) prostitution are rare. So, because I work very hard to give my games a pre-modern feel, prostitution is ubiquitous in my games. That said, I can't think of a time in the past 2 years since I went back to D&D that my PCs have interacted with a prostitute.

I know that most D&D games are not pre-modern in feel but instead entail modern people wandering around in a low tech, magic-rich world and so I can understand why this question comes up. But if you are seeking that pre-modern game feel, criminalizing prostitution is a real problem. Two main reasons for this are: (1) pre-modern societies, if they disapproved of prostitution, as many did, would express this disapproval throughh extra-legal community sanctions or religious sanctions; (2) some pre-modern societies were very unclear about where prostitution stopped and started -- many would reinterpret dating, attentive waitressing and other phenomena we see as pretty benign as lesser types of prostitution.

Yep. Nothing more to add.



joe b.

 

[Desdichado]

Of course, the assumption that D&D is reflective of any pre-Modern societies of our earth is a bit of a stretch to begin with...

 

[diaglo]

Of course, the assumption that D&D is reflective of any pre-Modern societies of our earth is a bit of a stretch to begin with...

yeah just ask Blackleaf

 

[S'mon]

Of course, the assumption that D&D is reflective of any pre-Modern societies of our earth is a bit of a stretch to begin with...

Well you can make it reflect more or less whatever you like - the DM can create the societies & cultures he wants, he's not forced to apply some kind of D&D default (and the default societal assumptions clearly vary over time anyway, from 1e (mostly akin to low fantasy swords & sorcery novels, with a dose of Tolkien and medieval Catholicism) to 2e (TSR Ethics Code era) to 3e (D&D as computer game/sui generis). D&D is not a culture. YMMV

 

[MerakSpielman]

Prostitution can be either

A) Underground and illegal. Most people know it exists, but don't want to have anything to do with it. The prostitution rings operate like thieves guilds, and potential customers are approached carefully, as though they were trying to market illegal drugs or hit-man services.

B) Underground and illegal, but everybody accepts it as an inevitable part of society. The cops look the other way or take bribes, and nobody seriously thinks it can/should be totally eliminated.

C) Openly operating and legal, but only in the bad side of town, or in the more bawdy taverns. This is what happens to girls who run away from home and have no other way to make money, though enough rich career-women exist to keep up a good public image and keep the proprieter's noses clean. As a place of business, it is acceptable, if distasteful, they pay their taxes, and men aren't looked down upon if they are known customers.

D) Open, legal, and socially acceptable. Prostitutes are not looked down upon by society. Perhaps they have unions. There might be special schools and courses offering advanced training. It's no longer a profession that young women are driven into out of desperation, but a acceptable career path that even their parents might approve of.

 

[Desdichado]

Well you can make it reflect more or less whatever you like - the DM can create the societies & cultures he wants, he's not forced to apply some kind of D&D default (and the default societal assumptions clearly vary over time anyway, from 1e (mostly akin to low fantasy swords & sorcery novels, with a dose of Tolkien and medieval Catholicism) to 2e (TSR Ethics Code era) to 3e (D&D as computer game/sui generis). D&D is not a culture. YMMV

D&D is a genre, in a way, though. The conventions of D&D are only superficially "medieval" however, they really are much more modern in terms of society, etc.

What that means for Greyhawk and prostitution... I haven't the foggiest idea.

 

[S'mon]

D&D is a genre, in a way, though. The conventions of D&D are only superficially "medieval" however, they really are much more modern in terms of society, etc.

What that means for Greyhawk and prostitution... I haven't the foggiest idea.

Like I said, "the conventions of D&D" vary hugely over time. The assumptions in the 1e DMG (of the famed random prostiute table) are hugely different from the 3e DMG in many respects. 1e was primarily grounded in swords & sorcery literature that predated the game, 3e is primarily grounded in D&D-influenced works, including game-world books and CRPGs. Where societal assumptions creep through they reflect the dungeon-punk of many CRPGs (in eg the look of equipment & clothing) and the west-coast Seattle society of WoTC (in eg the insistence that there is no stat differentiation by gender). In some respects I'd agree that 3e's default assumptions are much less 'medieval' than 1e's or many other RPGs, but that doesn't mean you can't create a world that resembles medieval Europe - whether that world is Greyhawk or another.

 

[Desdichado]

Not saying it can't be done, just that "default" D&D isn't, and never really has been, particularly medieval in nature. I'd agree with you that it started off much more sword and sorcery and has since become kinda "Herc and Xena" in many ways, or Everquest or Ultima or something like that. None of those are particularly medieval either.

 

[jgbrowning]

Not saying it can't be done, just that "default" D&D isn't, and never really has been, particularly medieval in nature. I'd agree with you that it started off much more sword and sorcery and has since become kinda "Herc and Xena" in many ways, or Everquest or Ultima or something like that. None of those are particularly medieval either.

I have to disagree, but also agree. The major tropes of D&D are european medieval based and I think the "default" for D&D is european. If not european, definitly european-esque.

my evidence.

D&D assumes this, Feudalism + Plate Armor + Knights= (Medieval European), rather than, Feudalism + Yukinoa Do style armor + Samurai= (Japanese Feudal). The assumed is based on European. Surely you could change things to make it more Japanese, but that's only because it's already european.

Many of the weapons are European (few, non-european weapons, and then often in the "exotic" class), several of the core clases are based upon European ideas (Paladins, Druids, Bards) while the others have names chosen for banality and don't use any other civilization's tropes except for the Monk, which is definintly not european. Again, the assumed in based on European.

Many smaller things like, "Meals: Poor meals might be composed of bread, baked turnips, onions, and water. Common meals might consist of bread, chicken stew (easy on the chicken), carrots, and watered-down ale. Good meals might be composed of bread and pastries, beef, peas, and ale or wine." (PHB3.5 p131) This lets us know that the assumption isn't asian (no rice), isn't american (corn, squash, peppers, potatoes), isn't african (yams, cassava), isn't middle eastern (hummus, flatbreads, olives). Again, the assumed is european.

Look at the animal selection.. horses (no americas), no elephants, llamas, water buffalo etc.

Monsters all have european names, trolls, orcs, goblins... etc.

I think D&D assumes a european medieval (armor, weapons, paladins, food, animals) baseline if for no other reason than because so many of the D&D stuff only occured in conjuction during the european medieval period. IE. you won't find plate armor anywhere else but the european continent. This assumption isn't a requirement, but that's what the game's based on. Generally, whenever people make changes in the default setting of the game, the change is away from european.

The only reason why its not really a "medieval european" default like you're stating is isn't, is that most people really don't know what life was like during that period. People are making a medievalesque mish-mash based more upon movies, fantasy books, and comics (themselves often "losely based" upon medieval tropes) than upon anything really medieval. And then they're adding in modern sensibilties of how people "naturally" react in different circumstances. However, the stuff in the books is (generally ) more medieval european than any other period.

Also, some of this default is simply because the books are written in english. The words Oni and Ogre could be the name for the same monster (arguably) but the majority of the readers recognize one more than the other. This helps make the base assumption more european.

joe b.