Questions about sneak attacks

[Dandu]

Except that from the creature with darkvision's point of view, there is no shadow.

Is there a shadow in existance, in the absolute sense? DON'T WAIT FOR THE TRANSLATION, YES OR NO?

It's no different, really, from the different perspectives you may have if a character tries to hide behind a bush. If someone has a direct line of sight that does not include the bush, no hiding will work - from their perspective.

Is hiding behind a bush a SUPERNATUAL ABILITY?

Now, while your position on the Hide skill is justified based on the rules (those things we play DnD by) laid out in the description of the Hide skill, your position on HiPS is not.

If there are rules regarding Hide in Plain Sight that support your position, please cite them instead of using your opinion as evidence.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

I'll start (again).

Notice how it says that there must be some sort of shadow in existence, without any qualifier as to how subjective experience of shadows factors into it? That supports my position. Now, what supports yours?

The shadow dancer's hide in plain sight does not negate the need for a concealing darkness. It just moves it to being within a certain distance.

And the are shadows and concealing darkness in place, unless Darkvision and True Seeing can dispel darkness and magical darkness respectively.

 

[billd91]

Is there a shadow in existance, in the absolute sense? DON'T WAIT FOR THE TRANSLATION, YES OR NO?

If everybody in the area has darkvision and cannot perceive the shadow, does it exist?

If there are rules regarding Hide in Plain Sight that support your position, please cite them instead of using your opinion as evidence.

The description of HiPS for the shadowdancer says she can't hide in her own shadow (despite it being within 10 feet). Implication: the shadowdancer is effectively hiding in the requisite shadow. In the section of the PH under concealment, darkvision is clearly noted as ignoring the concealment of shadows and darkness.

And the are shadows and concealing darkness in place, unless Darkvision and True Seeing can dispel darkness and magical darkness respectively.

They don't need to dispel, they merely need to ignore the effects thereof to be able to observe the character trying to hide in plain sight.

 

[Dandu]

If everybody in the area has darkvision and cannot perceive the shadow, does it exist?

Oh, now you're getting all philisophical on me. Let's see... how about yes? Darkvision allows you to see in black and white in the darkness. If there was no darkness, you wouldn't be using Darkvision, would you?

The description of HiPS for the shadowdancer says she can't hide in her own shadow (despite it being within 10 feet). Implication: the shadowdancer is effectively hiding in the requisite shadow.

But she can hide in a shadow 10 feet away without changing her position, which implies that she is effectively not hiding in the requisite shadow.

In the section of the PH under concealment, darkvision is clearly noted as ignoring the concealment of shadows and darkness.

Darkness does not provide concealment against darkvision. HiPS, however, is not a person hiding in the shadows or darkness. It is a person using a Su ability to hide (in plain sight, no less) by invoking the power of nearby shadows that are not her own.

They don't need to dispel, they merely need to ignore the effects thereof to be able to observe the character trying to hide in plain sight.

Ignoring is not enough by the rules; they must destroy the darkness.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Normally, the conditions for having cover or concealment is relative to who you're hiding from. If you're ducking behind a wall, but the person you're trying to hide from is on that same side of the wall somewhere behind you...you don't have the cover to hide from him. But Hide in Plain Sight is different. All it requires is the existence of a shadow nearby, other than your own, and you can hide. Even if enemies are looking right at you. Hide in Plain Sight spits in the face of the enemy creatures' perception, it doesn't matter.

How about a more cynical answer?
PC: "That NPC can't see the shadow i want to hide with?"
DM: "Nope."
PC: "Awesome, I blend into the shadow that you just admitted the NPC can't see, and thus he can no longer see me either."
DM: "That fluff description of the ability sounds a little beyond the mundane..."
Player: "Lucky that it's a supernatural ability then, isn't it?"

If everybody in the area has darkvision and cannot perceive the shadow, does it exist?

Yes.

If a party of PCs can't perceive an ethereal creature that is in the room but is in no way interacting with them, does the ethereal creature exist?

Or the more classic question; If a tree falls in the forest, but no one is around to see or hear it...no, sorry. There's no issue that's up for debate. A tree ing fell, it really doesn't matter if you, Mr. Oh-so-important-my-perception-is-the-dealbreaker, noticed.

 

[Dandu]

How about a more cynical answer?
PC: "That NPC can't see the shadow i want to hide with?"
DM: "Nope."
PC: "Awesome, I blend into the shadow that you just admitted the NPC can't see, and thus he can no longer see me either."
DM: "That fluff description of the ability sounds a little beyond the mundane..."
Player: "Lucky that it's a supernatural ability then, isn't it?"

Let's have some more fun.

PC: "That shadows in the NPC's ears... he can't see that even with his Darkvision, can he?"
DM: "*******ing *****balls

 

[Plane Sailing]

Hi all,

Please don't get too tense during the discussion! We are all sharing opinions and having fun here.

Thanks

 

[Jhaelen]

Yeah! Yet another HiPS discussion. There's been dozens (if not hundreds) already. There cannot be any consensus, it's really a DM's call how to treat it.

I'd like to point out that there are lots of different versions of HiPS, some of them are supernatural, some are extraordinary. The best known variants are the Shadowdancer's and the Ranger's.

Other interesting variants:
- Complete Champion has a prestige class (Shadowspy, IIRC) that only works if light is available
- Tome of Magic has the Dark Template which only works in darkness
- one of the Eberron source books has some other weird variant, I've forgotten...

All of these variants work differently and have to be judged on a case-by-case basis. There is no general rule governing how HiPS is supposed to work.

 

[El Mahdi]

deleted

 

[Dandu]

So, basically, True Seeing allows you to ignore virtually any magical concealment - period.

Almost is not quite all.

True Seeing
You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness

Not HiPS

notices secret doors hidden by magic

Not HiPS

sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects

Not HiPS

sees invisible creatures or objects normally

Not HiPS

sees through illusions

Not HiPS

and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. ...

Not HiPS

True Seeing allows the user to see through a lot of magical concealment, but it is specific in what it can and cannot do. And the specifics of the spell, rather than it's general description, seem to rule out that it can defeat HiPS.

 

[Nonei]

You're right: it is specific in what it can and cannot do. Just because it lists examples, however, doesn't means those examples are inclusive of all cases unless it says so. What it says is:

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are.

then it goes on to list the exceptions:

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent.

The subject sees all things as they actually are - as in, as they would be if there were no magic (or normal darkness) involved. The spell does not list anything that is not mundane in the exceptions.

Since HiPS is supernatural - and hence magical - and does not include using a solid object, I would rulein my game that true seeing trumps it regardless of the shadows argument. As for the shadows argument... I'd probably rule that since HiPS uses a shadow, if a creature cannot see the shadow then you're just out of luck (against that creature).

Of course, others may rule differently. It does seem like HiPS could have been worded a bit better especially relating to darkvision and true seeing. They're not exactly obscure things in D&D.