Questions about sneak attacks

[Dandu]

You're right: it is specific in what it can and cannot do. Just because it lists examples, however, doesn't means those examples are inclusive of all cases unless it says so.

I interpret the text after "True Seeing allows subjects to see all things as they actually are" as clarifying exactly what they meant by "see things as they are".

As for the shadows argument... I'd probably rule that since HiPS uses a shadow, if a creature cannot see the shadow then you're just out of luck (against that creature).

Balzac.

Darkvision

Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black and white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.

 

[pawsplay]

Except that from the creature with darkvision's point of view, there is no shadow.

Sadly, shadowdancers show a callous disregard for that poor creature's opinion. They only care about shadows, not whether anyone can see them.

 

[billd91]

I don't think the description of the ability means she is hiding in the shadows...it's a supernatural ability...which means she is using magic to use the shadows to hide herself (in plain sight). (So, even though it's not applicable in this situation, I would rule that it does negate Darkvision - which would be a mundane ability or an Extraordinary ability, which is specifically non-magical.)

Whether or not you're convinced that a shadowdancer or assassin using hiding in plain sight should be seen by a creature with darkvision, the comparison between one being supernatural and the other being extraordinary is irrelevant. The extraordinary power of blindsight clearly trumps supernatural powers of invisibility (a yrthak ignores the invisibility of an invisible stalker). Extraordinary abilities can beat supernatural powers depending on what they do and how their behaviors interact.

 

[irdeggman]

Did I miss something here?

People are going on as if the source of HiPS was based on havin shadows present and furthermore as if it was a shadowcaster with the ability.

Was is specified that the PC the OP was asking about was a shadowcaster?

I know I (and several others) said to find out what the source of the ability was and what the specific text said about it.

 

[Dandu]

Did I miss something here?

People are going on as if the source of HiPS was based on havin shadows present and furthermore as if it was a shadowcaster with the ability.

Was is specified that the PC the OP was asking about was a shadowcaster?

Do you mean shadow dancer (DMG) or shadowcaster (ToM)?

I know I (and several others) said to find out what the source of the ability was and what the specific text said about it.

Ranger (PHB) Level 17 = natural enviroment
Shadowspy PrC (CC) Level 9 = sunlit area
Shadowdancer PrC (DMG) Level 1 = shadowy area
Dark Creature Template (ToM) LA+1 = shadowy area
Dark Creature Template (ToM) via Magic Item (22k) = shadowy area
Assassin (DMG) Level 8 = some sort of shadow, other than his own

There are other sources for HiPS besides Shadowdancer, but they all function similarly iirc with the exception of the Ranger's ability, which does not need shadows and is clearly not what the OP is talking about.

 

[Nonei]

I interpret the text after "True Seeing allows subjects to see all things as they actually are" as clarifying exactly what they meant by "see things as they are".

Ok I interpret the text after "True Seeing allows subjects to see all things as they actually are" as clarifying what it usually includes - if the developers wanted to include only those things, they wouldn't even have the first sentence or it would be less absolute.

Balzac.

Right LOL - I'm aware we disagree here.

It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally.

Here we have an absolute statement again, with a few examples after it, and this time we flipped - you feel the absolute statement is correct, and I feel that it is not as absolute as it seems.

Ok, it doesn't allow characters to see through magic or invisibility. But, it does allow a character to see through shadows - with normal hide, you can't use shadowy areas as concealment vs. darkvision because you're not concealed vs that person. Therefore, despite what the ability says, there are some times that the person with darkvision will see something that they might not see otherwise - the person hiding in the shadows.

It is an extension, yes, to say that the shadow referred to by HiPS would also not be helpful vs. darkvision. IMO it would be correct despite the text of HiPS not specifically addressing darkvision, but I can see the argument either way. I might rule the other way simply for player fun if they were going against a ton of enemies with darkvision.

 

[Dandu]

Ok I interpret the text after "True Seeing allows subjects to see all things as they actually are" as clarifying what it usually includes - if the developers wanted to include only those things, they wouldn't even have the first sentence or it would be less absolute.

The phrase "fluff text" comes to mind.

Here we have an absolute statement again, with a few examples after it, and this time we flipped - you feel the absolute statement is correct, and I feel that it is not as absolute as it seems.

If you want to judge whether Darkvision allows people with HiPS to be seen via examination of the examples, we see that you cannot see people who are invisible. This means that Darkvision does not defeat magic. This means that the magical HiPS is not defeated by Darkvision.

Ok, that's probably not the best argument that can be made, but I'm a little short on time at the moment. Someone will probably post a better one in a bit.

Ok, it doesn't allow characters to see through magic or invisibility. But, it does allow a character to see through shadows - with normal hide, you can't use shadowy areas as concealment vs. darkvision because you're not concealed vs that person. Therefore, despite what the ability says, there are some times that the person with darkvision will see something that they might not see otherwise - the person hiding in the shadows.

And since HiPS is Su, we can extrapolate that...

It is an extension, yes, to say that the shadow referred to by HiPS would also not be helpful vs. darkvision. IMO it would be correct despite the text of HiPS not specifically addressing darkvision, but I can see the argument either way. I might rule the other way simply for player fun if they were going against a ton of enemies with darkvision.

I'll agree that this is not the brightest point of RAW DnD, but I do feel that RAW and RAI wise, there's more grounds for darkvision not working than for it to work.

 

[Nonei]

If you want to judge whether Darkvision allows people with HiPS to be seen via examination of the examples, we see that you cannot see people who are invisible. This means that Darkvision does not defeat magic. This means that the magical HiPS is not defeated by Darkvision.

Ok, that's probably not the best argument that can be made, but I'm a little short on time at the moment. Someone will probably post a better one in a bit.

I think that's actually a pretty good summary of the disagreement.

Your position is that regardless of HiPS using a shadow, it is a supernatural (i.e. magical) ability and therefore is not defeated by darkvision. My position is that regardless of HiPS being magical, it uses shadows, which cannot be perceived by someone with darkvision, and therefore is defeated by darkvision.

Both positions are definitely arguable based on RAW.

Edit: I will concede, too, that having HiPS and always going against foes with darkvision would be decidedly unfun. So like I mentioned in a previous post, if one of my players wanted HiPS I would either use foes with darkvision sparingly or I would rule it your way, even though I disagree.

 

[Dandu]

And at this point, I feel obligated to point out that if HiPS is dependent on the creature being able to see the shadows (as opposed to there just being shadows, like the rules say) all a creature without Darkvision would have to do to spot a Shadowdancer would be to...

I shall illustrate with an example. I imagine it would go something like this.

Shadowdancer: Hide in Plain Sight! I use the shadow 10 feet to my left.
Lizardfolk: *Raises heavy steel shield an inch to block that area from his field of vision* Peekaboo, I see you.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'd be interested in knowing what you thought of the True Seeing issue.

Well my thought on the True Seeing issue is this:

"...Why do people always try and assign True Seeing more power than it's explicitly listed as having? It already completely and utterly screws over an entire school of magic. What, that's not good enough?"

As far as darkvision goes, also agree with you. Doesn't really matter what other people perceive for the existence of shadows, HiPS doesn't care. And Darkvision is an extremely common racial trait, a low level spell, and a cheap magic item. So I'd be opposed to it negating HiPS regardless.