Questions anent Improved Trip ...

[Jeff Wilder]

Assume a character with Improved Trip, which, per the SRD, says, "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."

That "as if" clause is the crux of the question. Does it mean that if the tripping PC -- "whoa, dude! colors!" -- performed the trip other than as an attack, there's no bonus attack? Or is it there for another reason, such as to help determine which bonus of an iterative attack would be used?

To illustrate:

(1) If someone tries to trip my Improved Trip PC, but he turns the tables and trips his attacker, does my PC get a followup attack? Why or why not?

Related, but slightly different:

(2) If my PC also has the Knock-Down feat -- "whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target" -- and does successfully trip the target, does he get a follow-up attack? Why or why not?

Opinions are very welcome, but if there's an official ruling, I'd love a cite.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That "as if" clause is the crux of the question. Does it mean that if the tripping PC -- "whoa, dude! colors!" -- performed the trip other than as an attack, there's no bonus attack? Or is it there for another reason, such as to help determine which bonus of an iterative attack would be used?

Both.

(1) If someone tries to trip my Improved Trip PC, but he turns the tables and trips his attacker, does my PC get a followup attack? Why or why not?

No. If your countertrip is successful, you immediately get a bonus attack as if you had not used your attack to trip...

... but the only sort of attack you can make with the countertrip is to trip... and since he's already prone, that's kinda pointless.

(2) If my PC also has the Knock-Down feat -- "whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target" -- and does successfully trip the target, does he get a follow-up attack? Why or why not?

No, but that's because it explicitly states (in the S&F second printing, in the S&F errata, in the S&F FAQ... pretty much everywhere except the S&F first printing) that Improved Trip and Knockdown can't be used together.

Another example is the Cause Overreach effect of the Elusive Target tactical feat, where if someone misses you with an AoO, you get to trip them. If you're successful, then Improved Trip lets you make an attack as if you hadn't used your trip attack to trip... but since tripping is the only kind of attack Cause Overreach allows, attacking 'as if you hadn't used the attack to trip' doesn't do anything.

-Hyp.

 

[tarchon]

Assume a character with Improved Trip, which, per the SRD, says, "If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."

That "as if" clause is the crux of the question. Does it mean that if the tripping PC -- "whoa, dude! colors!" -- performed the trip other than as an attack, there's no bonus attack? Or is it there for another reason, such as to help determine which bonus of an iterative attack would be used?

To illustrate:

(1) If someone tries to trip my Improved Trip PC, but he turns the tables and trips his attacker, does my PC get a followup attack? Why or why not?

Related, but slightly different:

(2) If my PC also has the Knock-Down feat -- "whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target" -- and does successfully trip the target, does he get a follow-up attack? Why or why not?

Opinions are very welcome, but if there's an official ruling, I'd love a cite.

3E FAQ (from 2002):
If you successfully trip an opponent during an overrun,
do you get a free attack if you have the Improved Trip feat?
No. The Improved Trip feat gives you a free attack only if
you use a melee attack to trip a foe and you succeed. (In effect.
this replaces the attack you used to make the trip with an attack
that can deal damage.)

Says the same thing about the knockdown feat. Personally, I might be inclined to allow it to work on a countertrip.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

"If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."

Out of curiousity. Does this mean a True Strike or Smite Evil used for the trip attack would also apply to the follow up attack?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Out of curiousity. Does this mean a True Strike or Smite Evil used for the trip attack would also apply to the follow up attack?

The effect is already discharged.

The 3.5 FAQ says something about it. As far as you are concerned, it's 'as if you didn't make a trip attack'. Obviously, as far as the guy lying on the ground is concerned, there was definitely a trip. And as far as True Strike is concerned, an attack roll was made.

-Hyp.