Questions around Icons

[Nilbog]

Hi

So the next campaign I run will be in 13th age. I'm transitioning over from 4e, so I think my DM'ing style and focus will have to shift accordingly.

In regards to this I have a question about icons:
i) How do you handle relationship conflicts between PC icons, ie if one member of the group has a positive relationship and another a negative, especially in regards both rolling a six on the relationship dice

ii)Rolling every session, our group consists of five players, so its quite possible if we rolled every session there would be quite a lot of icon interaction going off, how do you incorporate this without it dragging attention away from the main campaign too much, and also can it become a bit overkill? I was thinking of maybe making the rolls every other session, so when the dice do come up 5 or 6 it feels a bit more special.

iii) I'm struggling to think of enough ideas for icon interactions, do you guys have any examples that could spark my creativity? I know a lot will be plot specific, but I like to throw curve-balls in now and again

Thanks for any help

 

[NinjaPaladin]

i) You don't -- that's the PCs job. If someone wants to get something for the Prince of Shadows, and someone else wants to get the same thing for the Dwarf King, well, that's for the PCs to decide. And it should have fun repercussions.

ii) You can certainly do what you're suggesting, but one of the goals of 13th Age, or at least one of the opportunities, was to let players get a bit more narrative control by deciding what icons they wanted to matter. The icon relationships should kind of BE the "main campaign". As the GM, you can say, "Well, my plan is for the party to fight through this haunted ziggurat this session, and fight a big nasty demon at the end," but whether they're doing that to get an item for the Elf Queen, repair a damaged artifact for the Archmage, or kill a cultist of the Lich King depends upon the rolls -- and if the rolls come up "The Three", then you replace the big nasty demon with a big nasty dragon. The game is made to be simple enough in terms of overhead that you can do those changes on the fly.

Now, if there's a story you want to tell specifically -- and if you're a GM, odds are that there is -- there are ways to work with this.

a) Tell players up front, "I want the Three to be involved heavily in this campaign. I don't wanna say how, but it would make my life easier if several people had relationships with them. I don't really plan to use the Orc Lord much, unless someone absolutely loves him and wants to have a relationship with him. Thoughts?"
b) Keep the story as you like, but have the good relationship rolls come up as flashbacks that let PCs overcome obstacles. "As I look at the statue with a strange slot in the front, I remember when I killed an agent of the Orc Lord and found a weirdly shaped pendant on his body. I wonder if that fits into that slot in the statue?" Surprise, it does! Your Orc Lord relationship helped you bypass something!
c) If you get a lot of rolls, you might not be able to hit everyone in a single session. Keep track, and remember it next time. It's okay to get a bit behind. It's also okay to let heroes make suggestions for when their roll comes into play. You can treat it as the player having a Get Out of Jail Free card.

iii) Not sure what you're asking for. I mean, I can brainstorm all you like. What do you need help with?

 

[Manabarbs]

Here's what I tend to do:
i) It depends a lot on the nature of the actual relationships. There's a lot of possible ways that positive and negative relationships can be expressed. True differences of opinion, as NP notes, are probably best left handled by the players. As far as two players with opposite types of relationships both rolling sixes on the same day, the easiest thing to do is just handle those rolls as two separate events. There's an event where one of the players is unambiguously benefitted as a result of their positive relationship, and then another event where one of the players is unambiguously benefitted by their negative relationship.
ii) If you feel that icon relationship rolls are a little too prominent, I don't think it would really hurt anything to roll them less often, especially with a large group or a group that plays shorter sessions. One thing that works well if a number of players have relationships with the same icon or a player has lots of dice with an icon is to create a standard conduit through which the rolls can be expressed, such as a recurring contact that provides information, resources, or support. I also like leaving some dice unused for the players to decide how to use during the day. I think it's also useful to have some "stock" icon interactions in mind. Finally, on days that really just tons of dice come up 5 or 6, I've found that most players don't really have a problem having dice rolled over until the next day or converted into something good that happened between sessions.

 

[Evil_Scoff]

Thanks for the replies

I'm slowly starting to get my head around the icons, its a bit of a step away from a traditional way of setting up a campaign, but i like it

I think what i'm trying to avoid is interactions becoming to generic, ie agents of the orc lord show up and request x or attack way, i want them to be more subtle, but not so subtle that they get looked over or are not considered worthwhile.

I also suppose i'm a bit worried that it could get a tad confusing if it opens too many threads, i guess i just need to find a way to keep them tied together

 

[Manabarbs]

One thing that might be useful to keep things both grounded in what's already happening and to make them less generic would be to start with what you see as the major plot threads happening in your game, and then from there think about how an icon relationship could affect that thread or tie into it.

 

[EvilDwarf]

I'm prepping to DM our first session of 13th Age, and we're loving creating the characters, the rules we're reading, etc. But the Icons are giving me fits, lol.

Disclaimer (I guess): we're overlaying the Icons onto our existing game world, which is actually working out to be not so bad, as we've gamed in it since 1st Edition lol. We even have some match with the Icons to iconic heroes of our own world's history, so that's been fun.

But I'm not digging the Icons. IMHO I'm good at improv and reacting to character actions on the fly and incorporating character choices into the next session, or even in the same session. Once while we were playing Warhammer 2nd ed rpg, I improved an entire evening during which a player sought out a "replacement" arm for one that had been mangled beyond use in a combat. We still laugh and talk about that, and it was entirely improv on my part for about a 5 hour session.

To the Icons: so, the RAW and various posts here and over at Pelgrane say things like, If you roll a 6 on the Relationship Dice, you get something from the Icon, possibly a map or a magic item to help out.

That's great. I get that. But HOW do the players GET the map or magic item? The rules and other people's post imply that characters do not interact directly with the Icons, so it's not like the Emperor calls you into the throne room or meets you on the field in his command tent to charge you with a mission and hand you a magic sword.

So, I'm thinking, it must be the Icons' agents that do all this, but then I have to create the Icon's agents? And then we have a layer of NPC that seems to complicate things. And if I'm bothering creating living, breathing NPC agents of the Icons, why not just have the Icons contact the characters directly, except how does the Lich King give my Sorcerer his magic item?? Does one travel to the other's location?

So then I think, Well, maybe the Icons have something operating around the cities like guilds or even cults to which the characters have access, and the guilds and cults do the contacting and the handing outs.

All or a combination of these would probably work out ok, but it seems to be adding a layer of complexity to a system that seems averse to complexities like these. I have to create the Icon's NPC agents? That's a lot of work to do that correctly. How do the agents meet the characters? How much session time does that take? Handle that over email between sessions? Do I now have to create and flesh out guilds? Where and how do these operate in the cities? Must they then be connected to cities?

And then I think, since the rules and posts just seem to say, Your players get help if they get a 5 or 6 on the Relationship roll, maybe I just hand wave the interaction and the help and say, You get a messenger raven with a map attached to its leg? Or a magic sword, lol?

I hope this is making sense. I'm getting frustrated just trying to explain

For me, in prepping to DM, this seems one big chink in the 13th Age armor--that system is tied to setting. There have been threads in the DND Next forums about whether DND Next can or even already does imply setting. In this case, I wish the system had left out the setting. It's giving me fits.

I also am not sure, but again I've not DMed it yet, how much I like the implication that you almost need to run an adventure path to get this Icon thingy to work out right.

 

[Evil_Scoff]

I'm prepping to DM our first session of 13th Age, and we're loving creating the characters, the rules we're reading, etc. But the Icons are giving me fits, lol.

.

I'm in the same boat struggling to get my head round them, i'm really hoping for a eureka moment!

from what i understand the method of delivery can vary dramatically, the book suggests things like flashbacks, premonitions, magical sending spells and even magical spirits.

What i'm trying to do is not make every interaction so obvious, i think it will get over used (and confusing) if every session some dream happens or spirit turns up (especially if they are in the middle of a dungeon), I don't want it to detract from everything else going off, and its this integration I'm struggling with

 

[Manabarbs]

A reasonable subtle way to do it is with nonmagical inspiration. A character might notice or recall something as a result of their connection that provides a benefit of some kind - for example, they might recognize something that's otherwise not obviously valuable as valuable.

In the middle of a classic-style dungeon is definitely one of the places where it's most difficult to pull off icon relationship rolls. When in doubt, you can always just leave the die in the pool and let the player help decide what it does.

 

[Rel]

What I'll plan to do is first draw upon the characters themselves to see what kind of inspiration I can glean from Backgrounds and One Unique Things. There might be lots of conduits there to put information and power into the hands of the PC's.

For example a PC might have a One Unique Thing (can we go ahead and start calling that an OUT and everybody know what we mean?) "I see dead people." If they have a relationship with the Priestess, perhaps they are visited by the ghosts of those that the Priestess could no longer resurrect but who wish to serve her in the afterlife. Such ghosts might be able to pass on information, provide guidance, and even possess an inanimate object temporarily or permanently (boom, instant magic item tailored to the character!).

Another PC might have a Background in "Performer from the Circus of the Damned". They were held captive for the Diabolist's amusement and have a negative relationship with her. A 6 on that relationship roll might mean they encounter another person whom they helped to escape from the Circus who owes them a favor. A 5 on that roll might mean they are being followed by agents of the Diabolist who wants to recapture them.

There may be certain relationships that are harder to figure out ways to smoothly come into play. But I'd look for obvious ways that the player is already hinting as my first line of defense.

 

[Blue]

I'd try talking to your group about them, let them know you're still feeling out how it works for your particular group, and enlist their help.

Paraphrasing an example I gave elsewhere for relationship rolls when the PCs were hunting down gnolls. A 5 with the Priestess had a local priest seek them out after hearing what they were doing with gifts of healing potions, but also abjuring them to destroy their temple if they were demon worshipers like many gnolls. A 6 with the High Druid meant that she was concerned with them in the woods and a talking raven came by wehn they got close to give them info. And a conflicted 6 with the Lich King that didn't seem to fit had a player asking if there was any nearby graveyards and spinning a yarn about ancestor worship among the gnolls and their fear of stepping on (and therefore disrespecting) interred dead. If you like it and run with it, that's them giving themselves a location with favorable terrain for a fight.

The relationship rolls help the PCs be important, involved with the (organizations of) the movers and shakers. If at the start of every session is daunting, try at the end of each session for the next, giving you some time to plan. Remember that things like magic items don't have to be loot, it could be rewards or incentives from the icons. A "5" is a great chance to loan a PC a nice item to follow up on a plot hook that the Icon wants resolved. "We abjure you to investigate the Hellhole near the town of Nod's Glen, and entrust you with The Third Retort, a powerful blade forged by the dwarven smith Kharas in the 9th Age in the service of the Great Gold Wyrm while you do so. Though be prudent, the blade is overly eager to be about it's mission."