Questions from beginner

[Dr_Ruminahui]

That said, certain types of characters do better against certain types of monster, so not having those types will make encounters more challenging.

For example:
- characters with radiant damage versus undead
- ranged strikers versus artillery and ranged controllers
- characters with blasts/bursts against minions and swarms.

That said, for the most part parties will do fairly well without a given role being filled.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Any monster this trivial should just be a minion, PERIOD. Either its cannon fodder and there mostly for show (minion), or its something that should take SOME amount of effort to kill (non-minion). Low level mooks aren't that hard to kill anyhow.

Yeah, but they ARE near-impossible to kill without sounding an alert, and that's the problem that VallhallaGH is trying to overcome.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Any monster this trivial should just be a minion, PERIOD. Either its cannon fodder and there mostly for show (minion), or its something that should take SOME amount of effort to kill (non-minion).

How about you don't tell me how to run my games and I don't tell you how to run yours. Okay?
Have fun.


For other readers, I described conditional minions for those that have never encountered the concept. I've found it to be an extremely useful tool for rewarding intelligent PC approaches without removing my ability to use standard monsters (who pose a significant challenge) when things either go horribly wrong or when the party tries to "kick in the door" on an obviously serious challenge.
I hope that others find it as useful as I have.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, but they ARE near-impossible to kill without sounding an alert, and that's the problem that VallhallaGH is trying to overcome.

Well, there are a couple reasons I don't consider it the ideal solution. For one thing it basically railroads the party into using a specific tactic. Either they decide to sneak up and gank the guard, or they have to deal with a much tougher opponent. Especially at higher levels the difference between a minion and a full monster is pretty large. Secondly it puts everything on a single die roll. Fail that roll and you have a problem on your hands. I'd much rather make it a skill challenge and allow for a few rolls. That also lets the party choose its tactics. Player choice is always a good thing. Finally if there's a minion guard and a tougher opponent available to back him up if the party fails then you don't get faced with the question of exactly what is the encounter difficulty. Its the same either way, you just gain some tactical advantage if you can defeat the guard.

How about you don't tell me how to run my games and I don't tell you how to run yours. Okay?
Have fun.

No need to be so touchy about it. Nobody is telling anyone to do anything.

 

[Stuntman]

Don't write off swarms though.

They add a very fun element to the game. Their is nothing wrong with danger and pushing your players to their limits. If you want to give your players a warm up easy period, great. But don't write off swarms definitively. There's nothing like a few good rat swarms dropping down on your players as they sludge through sewer tunnels!

I actually loved swarms. Later on I put another swarm in an encounter and saw the hate they had when they saw it because of their first experience with it. My initial encounter used too many, but I was learning about different abilities of different monsters.

 

[Stuntman]

Delete. Error.

 

[ValhallaGH]

No need to be so touchy about it. Nobody is telling anyone to do anything.

Odd thing to say, given how commanding your previous post was.

Any monster this trivial should just be a minion, PERIOD. Either its cannon fodder and there mostly for show (minion), or its something that should take SOME amount of effort to kill (non-minion).

That sort of volume only comes with commands and / or arrogance.

Your second post is a much more interesting and useful analysis, rather than an arrogant dismissal of an idea you dislike. I think your reasoning is highly flawed, but it is present and provides substance for discourse.

Well, there are a couple reasons I don't consider it the ideal solution. For one thing it basically railroads the party into using a specific tactic.

Not in the slightest. It's not like you have to tell the players about your conditional minions. Instead it is a pleasant surprise when they do something that is 1) intelligent, 2) appropriate for trained and experienced combatants, 3) narratively and cinematically appropriate for the scene, 4) and is rewarded by keeping the "sneaky-violence" approach viable by allowing them to quietly kill opposition.
Like traditional circumstance bonuses, they don't know they're getting them until it's happening. At which point they are pleased that their idea is working even better than expected.
They still have other options, but conditional minions make violent stealth a usable option, despite the 3E / 4E tradition of "violence ends all stealth".

Secondly it puts everything on a single die roll. Fail that roll and you have a problem on your hands.

If things often come down to a single roll in a given campaign then something is really odd, and probably wrong. There are plenty of spots, throughout the rules, where a single die roll can make everything go sour (Saving Throws are the most common, but this can happen with just about any type of roll).
The only real effect is to make their plan non-functional at which point they need to activate Plan B (or run away to create a plan B for future activation).

I'd much rather make it a skill challenge and allow for a few rolls.

Then do so. No reason you can't have each approach be a skill challenge; heck, it sounds like the perfect recipe for a skill challenge.

Player choice is always a good thing.

Agreed. I like to think that Conditional Minions provide the PCs the option of stealthy violence, while keeping the DM option of using real monsters for the guards most of the time. A wealth of choices for all playing the game.
Apparently you feel differently (though I don't see why).

As for encounter difficulty, it would seem to me that replacing the guards monsters with an equal number of minions and the skill challenge of eliminating them stealthily would be worth equal experience, being of the same overall difficulty. And if things go sour and they have to fight a bunch of scary monsters, well, sometimes encounters are crazy-difficult.