Questions regarding Epic Levels

[Cyri'kazzen the Drow]

Hi there. I am currently in the process of planning the next phase of a long-term campaign which will take the characters from 14th level to epic levels.

My questions are about the Epic Level Handbook. Have folks used it extensively? What have you liked about it? What have to disliked about it? What rules are broken? Has anyone attempted to adapt some of the rules to make them more balanced? Any further advice that you might give to someone who is planning an epic-level campaign? Etc. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Kerrick]

There are numerous threads on these boards about the ELH and how badly done it was, and how much we hate the rules (although some people would beg to differ, and there are some good points about it). If you search back a month or so, there were a couple threads that have a lot of good info on them.

 

[Dragon Mage]

I have taken my party up to 23rd level, and so far the Epic rules have worked fine. I have no doubts that taking any game to levels above 30 or so would have break downs, but I like most of the ELH.

The spell seeds can get a little vague and cause balance issues. But for the most part I found the biggest balance issue at high levels was not in ELH, but in the core rules, mainly Mordenkains Disjunction. This spell will break the game. Also, be sure to use the updated information if you are using 3.5.

 

[Dragon Mage]

double post

 

[Crothian]

The book is actually pretty well done, most people's problems comes from vocabulary issues.

I've taken a group all the way to 33rd level and had no problems using the rules as they were. Now, there are things that can be abused especially at these power levels but I never had anyone try so we had no problem there. The magic items in the book are extremely boring, so I'd suggest just creating new ones. The mosnters are cool though.

 

[Squire James]

The ELH rules work fine if nobody makes a serious effort to derail them. It has some of the same problems as the Core Rules with regards to feats. Fighters STILL get twice as many choices from a smaller list of feats than a Paladin or Barbarian would get (given the latter 2 classes can use nearly all the Fighter feats too).

High-level play can also easily introduce some new issues and imbalances into the game. For instance, if the entire party goes in for some form of Red Dragonarmor with Heavy Fortification, this significantly decreases the risk level when going against red dragons (who are still physically formidable), high-end demons/devils (who are not), or anything with a rapier (since that 15-20 crit range is now useless). These are things that have come up before level 25 in my campaign.

 

[Ironclad]

I'm playing in an epic campaign at the moment so I can see it from the other side...

I find that between CR 20 encounters and CR 21 there is a quantum leap in power and not the relatively level progression that occurs at earlier levels. The costs of magic items etc also enjoys this quantum level progression.

I agree that the magic items are pretty dull as well. Some of the leaps of epic logic are a little ... odd. (Now because you are "epic" the veil is lifted from your eyes ... ahh ... the epic-ness reveals itself)

Overall, it seems to run reasonably well though and I presume my GM is reasonably happy with.

 

[Jolly Giant]

Half an hour ago I finished a marathon session in which the five (evil) PCs defeated 7 opponents with CR ranging from 32 to 42. Last session they killed a sainted level 43 wizard and 5 CR 28 celestials. The campaign started four and a half years ago and entered epic levels two years ago...

So far the only thing we've had to tweak a bit are the rules for epic spells. I've made two simple hourserules regarding the mitigating factors that allow you to lower the DC for casting epic spells, and now they work ok:

1) Mitigating factors can not reduce the DC by more than 50% and not below the sum of the seeds that go into the spell.

2) Backlash damage can only be used for spells that deal damage (any kind of damage; HP, ability damage or negative levels).

You also need to use some judgement when calculating the CR of advanced and/or templated monsters. This is of course the case for any level of play, but as the CR increases so does the need for good judgement.

Mostly though, the epic rules have worked just fine for us. (But be warned: There'll be more and more work for you to do as your players advance in levels!) I'll agree with previous posters that the magic items in ELH aren't very interesting; most of them are just more powerful versions of old favorites from the DMG. Take the time to make your own items, custom made for your NPCs.

Good luck, and have fun!

 

[Dragonblade]

I have fairly extensive experience with the ELH and have found that if you keep several things in mind, the rules work great.

1) Prep time - Preparing for Epic level adventures can take a significantly longer time than normal adventures. Because NPCs and monsters usually have a laundry list of special powers and spells available and its best to assume that any good spells with long durations will have been cast before any battle even starts. I would make a list of spells with significant durations and the bonuses they provide and assume any NPC spellcaster or monsters has already cast them. You also need to be familiar with all the cool special abilities your bad guys may have so that you can use them on the PCs without having to stop the game to look them up.

2) Epic Spells - I found the Epic spell rules somewhat unbalancing and dumped them.

3) NPC level demographics - I find that epic level PCs running around a world of 1st level warriors and commoners to be terribly unbalancing. I have rescaled NPC level demographics so that 1st level effectively represents a child. A new recruit in the kings army is already around level 3 or 4. A veteran soldier would be level 10 to 15. NPCs above 20th level are fairly common. Likewise monsters are tougher too and most intelligent monsters have class levels. I found that this keeps the game gritty and brutal even at high levels yet the players are happy because they get to use all their cool high level abilities and spells to full effect. It also helps the PCs respect the NPCs more. A party is much less likely to roll into town like they own the place when the captain of the guard is 30th level.

 

[Dragonblade]

4) Save or Die effects are much more common and I didn't like video-game feel of Raise Dead and Resurrection so I banned those spells. To compensate for the Save or Die problem every player gets Fate points which can be spent to completely ignore one spell or attack as if it missed. The player can spend the Fate point at any time, even after they know they failed their save or that the monsters crit would kill them.

I give out Fate points sparingly. Usually in response to great acts of heroism or role-playing or at the climax of an adventure.