Questions with Gate

[IcyCool]

Errr....you meant to say "more that one question" or "questions", right?

Yes.

The same as those for a 22HD solar, except for the extra HD and those things that change with HD, such as size, ability scores, BAB........

Yup.....in the sense that they are the same as those of a 22HD solar, except where the added HD apply.

So, what feats specifically does the average 34 HD Solar have? Skills? Ability score bumps? There certainly doesn't seem to be a standard anywhere. Maybe because each advanced Solar is a unique creature?

Whoever has an interest, I'd imagine. There are rules for advancing monsters, so the player can follow those rules. In fact, given the spell Summon Monster I, the player has already had to stat out a monster that is different than those printed within the MM.

So now not only do you get to summon an uber Solar, but you get to customize it as well? That doesn't sound like a unique creature to you?

Nope. The rules do not require that there be only one solar with 34HD. ...we've already been over this.

True, but nowhere in the rules does it describe the "average 34 HD Solar" either.

The interesting phrase Infiniti2000 found might mean that some of these advanced creatures are unique.

Yep. Advanced critters are meant to represent "extraordinary" members of their kind. If Solars were advanceable by HD or Class levels, why not just summon a 6th level Cleric/6th level Heirophant Solar? Or how about a 12th level Ninja Solar? Aren't there just a bunch of those hanging around? They've got to be at least as common as a 34 HD Solar, right?

Of course, now we'll have to debate whether "extraordinary" monsters are always "unique".

I would certainly say that they are "unique enough".

 

[Nail]

Errr....you meant to say "more that one question" or "questions", right?

Yes.

I would certainly say that they are "unique enough".

....and here's where we come to the "agree to disagree" bit at the end of a thread. Ah well. It was a fun, informative ride!

Say "hello" to Ralph, the unique enough solar for me.

 

[IcyCool]

First: HD != CR, so we wouldn't want to compare some random 34HD monster to a 34 HD solar. A Colossal Monstrous Spider is 32 HD..........

But didn't you say HD was a balancing factor?

The spell balance comes from the HD limit, principally. Even advanced monsters are balanced in this way.

Second, I'm not sure why it's necessary, or even why it's necessary to restrict our choices to the MM. We could look in the Epic Level Handbook, for example.......

By all means.

Of course, this sort of scene would have ABSOLUTELY NO PLACE in a fantasy campaign.

Why not? If knowing a creatures name kept you from summoning it, why wouldn't said critter go out of its way to make sure everyone knows its name?

 

[Infiniti2000]

The spell balance comes from the HD limit, principally. Even advanced monsters are balanced in this way.

I have to disagree with you from my personal view point. I agree with your perspective in that I think the designers unfortunately intended HD to be a balancing factor, but IMO it isn't. This is why I have houserules that cap spells like planar ally not only to HD, but also CR. One example of a broken planar ally would be the kelvezu from the MMII. It's a CR 18, 12HD creature. Introduce that into your mid-level game for the bad guy evil cleric and you get see one TPK after another. You can also just slap template on after template to bump the CR without touching the HD.

Anyway, thanks for the fun discussion.

Ninja solar?

 

[Nail]

I agree with your perspective in that I think the designers unfortunately intended HD to be a balancing factor, but IMO it isn't.

(nods) As a matter of "gaming honor" ( ), I won't Gate creatures with higher CR than a base 22HD solar (at least until/unless we go Epic). Same with stuff from MMII, ELH, etc. It is cheesy. ......And, its rules legal, for what that's worth.

Ninja solar?

Yoowsa. I was dreaming about the table chatter if my PC gated in a half-celestial adult prismatic dragon paragon......of legacy, naturally.

 

[Nail]

Why not?

Errr...that was a bit of too-well disguised sarcasm. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Jhulae]

Here's a relavent quote about advancement from the SRD.

Advancement

The monster entry usually describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature. The advancement line shows how tough a creature can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die.

So, the advancement line shows how tough creatures of those types can get. It says nothing about them necessarily being extraordinary or unique (as they would be if they started taking classes).

And, it also implies that there *could* have been a stat block for each HD of advancement for a creature in the MM, since there are stronger and tougher versions, but how unwieldy would *that* have been? The MM would have been 6-8 times as big, or there would have been only a handful of monsters.