Questions with Gate

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But, given your line of reasoning. A wizard (given sufficient caster level) should be able to say that he wishes to call "One of the Dark Eight" (thus specifying a kind of creature), and not only would one of them have to come, but the wizard would have full control over it.

... Which is why you should use *my* line of reasoning.

The phrase "Deities and unique beings" represents a particular kind of creature - examples include the Dark Eight, the Righteous Captain of the Most Heavenly Host, Lolth, etc.

An advanced creature, though possibly powerful, is not a "deity or unique creature" until he crosses the subjective line described above.

If all solars are stock MM solars, except for the Righteous Captain of the Most Heavenly Host (who is the only solar advanced to 34 HD) then it's not possible to use Gate to get a 34 HD solar.

 

[Shariell]

thus we could argue it depends by the campaing the DM has in mind (nowere is stated how many 34HD solar are out there), but by the RAW nothing seems to state unique = advanced or vice versa.

Even a regular 22HD solar could be "unique" if you call exactly "Metafrel the Demonslayer" (or whatever name you like), and not a "common" 22 HD solar.
The funny thing, is "Metafrel the Demonslayer" could randomly appear even if not called, because he's still a regular 22 HD solar. Otherwise, every being is unique by definition.

The fact an advanced creature is a unique being could be of course an interpretation (up to the DM to judge), but not the RAW.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

No such RAW requirements exist. The fact that they do not exist means you use the commonly understood definition of "kind". I am doing that.

I guess this is where we disagree. My "commonly understood definition of 'kind'" is "solar." Not "34HD solar" as you seem to believe.

 

[Infiniti2000]

thus we could argue it depends by the campaing the DM has in mind (nowere is stated how many 34HD solar are out there), but by the RAW nothing seems to state unique = advanced or vice versa.
...
The fact an advanced creature is a unique being could be of course an interpretation (up to the DM to judge), but not the RAW.

Actually, I thought my quote was the most conclusive in terms of showing that advanced creatures are indeed unique. Nail's response was "Now we're getting somewhere...." which I hope means he's considering it. What do you think?

Even a regular 22HD solar could be "unique" if you call exactly "Metafrel the Demonslayer" (or whatever name you like), and not a "common" 22 HD solar.
The funny thing, is "Metafrel the Demonslayer" could randomly appear even if not called, because he's still a regular 22 HD solar. Otherwise, every being is unique by definition.

I agree. I think we're all doing a great job ignoring the fact that we're discussing solars as if they are run-of-the-mill when they are anything but. However, in actuality, I'd hope that the DM does indeed come up with some interesting characteristics of the solar whenever a "generic" one is summoned, such as Metafrel the Demonslayer.

As DM, I always have stats/names/etc. ready for creatures that might be gated in, binded, or called via planar ally spells. I don't personally just want to refer to the MM (or whatever source), or try to come up with something interesting on the fly. Of course, I encourage the players to give me advance warning if they're planning something like this in the future. It gives me the chance to create a couple options.

 

[molonel]

Looking at the improving monsters section, we see this little gem: "However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster."

Low and behold, could that be direct proof that advancing a creature creates a unique creature?

Except, low and behold, it says extraordinary OR unique. Such methods CAN be used to create unique creatures. I'm not sure anyone ever denied that. But such creatures are not necessarily unique, and thus, your "little gem" turns out to be a shiny people that looked more valauble when you plucked it out of the water than when you dried it off.

 

[Infiniti2000]

A shiny people? Okay, I know it's a typo, but it's still funny.

So, how does an extraordinary monster fit into the equation? Your argument is therefore that an extraordinary monster is one that is a general "kind of being?" I have to disagree with that. Anyway, I still think the available information substantially supports my view point versus the opposing view.

Is the existence of a 34HD solar a house rule in of itself? Meaning, I know there are rules to create a by-the-book 34HD solar, but in so creating one, wouldn't that be a house rule because there are no 34HD class of solars in the rules as written?

 

[TheGogmagog]

My opinion when I started reading this was that you couldn't summon/gate/polymorph advanced HD. In my previous opinion almost all Ropers were 7 HD, and the ones advanced to 15 HD would be almost as rare as ones with 8 levels of rogue.

After reading Infiniti's argument I realize how rare it would be for 90% of the Ropers to all have 7 HD. There is an advancement note for a reason and the Ropers are bound to have a range of HD, sure there will be more 7 than 15 HD, but 15 HD wouldn't be unique. What I did when running games, add class levels, would be rare.

I also disagree with Infiniti's claim that asking for anything more than what appears in the MM is metagaming. Characters do have a sense of size, and asking for a Huge Creature is perfectly reasonable. Although I think it states that characters don't have a sense of level, I disagree with this or a character would never ask for a restoration from level drain. The term for the character might not be level or HD, but to ask for in-game wording is silly unless you have developed an in game language that your players must speak in.

I could see a DM making you summon the base creature first, and then ask for a more powerful one or inching up in increments. I recall something about summoning spells being able to summon the same creature each time. That creature would also go up in level/HD eventually, probably not 10 levels in two weeks to keep up with your character though.

 

[TheGogmagog]

I also notice how paradoxical My stance of advancement was. I would have allowed a Dragon of different HD, but not a troll. I think I still won't allow creatures with class levels, not like the Troll Hunter.

I'm not sure what to think of summoning advancement by class like a Dwarven Fighter. Should you allow summoning of NPC classes, what about favored classes, there have to be more Dwarven Fighters than Dwarven Warriors. Maybe I was better off when I agreed with Infiniti. Back to base creature only? What if they have separate stat blocks like spiders and dragons? I need to ponder this.

 

[Infiniti2000]

After reading Infiniti's argument I realize how rare it would be for 90% of the Ropers to all have 7 HD. There is an advancement note for a reason and the Ropers are bound to have a range of HD, sure there will be more 7 than 15 HD, but 15 HD wouldn't be unique. What I did when running games, add class levels, would be rare.

Note that I never said that such a creature would be the only 15HD creature, but that in asking for one, you necessarily have to ask for a specific one. Fwiw, I'd buy the argument that, if you want, the DM could always choose a random roper (e.g., but an extraplanar one of course), advanced or not at his whim. Meaning, if you summon "a roper" you would get a run-of-the-mill roper N% of the time (the % depending on the world), and other, advanced ropers at other times. If the character (PC or NPC) wanted a particular roper of a certain level or class or whatever, it would necessarily have to be specific, and therefore (in my opinion) unique. I suppose he could summon "a roper sorcerer" and get one, but that assumes that roper sorcerers exist. Could he summon "a roper sorcerer with the ability to cast cone of cold"? Is that specific or general?

I also disagree with Infiniti's claim that asking for anything more than what appears in the MM is metagaming. Characters do have a sense of size, and asking for a Huge Creature is perfectly reasonable. Although I think it states that characters don't have a sense of level, I disagree with this or a character would never ask for a restoration from level drain. The term for the character might not be level or HD, but to ask for in-game wording is silly unless you have developed an in game language that your players must speak in.

I obviously don't agree that it's silly. But, I think the difference of opinion here is that you believe that character should have the concept of hit dice and class levels and be able to discuss them in game, while I do not. I agree that they will notice a measure of power and will be able to easily distinguish spell levels, but I personally draw the line at explicit knowledge of hit dice and class levels. I think that a character being able to distinguish 34HD from 35HD can only be described as metagaming. To me, it is silly to allow it to occur in game.

 

[Shariell]

well but, is a role play game...not real life.
Even search for a +5 sword is metagame, even preparing a character progression to be an archmage at 14th level is metagame, even chosing a feat you haven't see used in your life is metagame...certain actions could not be described in normal-life terms, but can be perfecly acceptable in-game by the rules.