Questions with Gate

[Shariell]

only my humble opinion of course

 

[Scion]

In fact (and the point I have not argued), the language of the spell can be interpreted to mean that if you call any individual by name (of any rank, power, race, etc), that individual is called "unique" by the spell, and thus is not forced to come and serve the caster.

I've seen this a few times in this thread and it strikes me as odd given the wording of the spell.

Calling Creatures: The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.

I dont think that simply 'having a name' is enough to make one unique for this spell. You can pull any named being through, willing or unwilling, 'unless' they are a diety or unique as the next line states.

If a named being was always considered unique then it could never be pulled through unwillingly and that whole part of the spell description would be rendered moot.

What is considered unique is just too undefined in the game. In 2nd edition it was fairly well defined. In fact, in many monster descriptions it said whether or not the creature was unique! (generally demon lords and 'powers' were considered as such, although typically only on their own planes).


Personally I only allow the spell to be used for travel in my games, it saves on so much trouble!

 

[Goolpsy]

The spell is about summoning a random monster of a specifict group. So it could for example either be Zulo the solar, or Benq the Solar etc. but not "I was BENQ!!" (free will option available to him)

See it as the Mage seeking a special type of "energy" (in case of a Solar.. then a solar energy) and if trying to call the biggest baddest and nastiest one he can with his power..

So it would be perfectly fair to let him summon a 34HD Solar (if he is strong enought, and if the monster even exist). For flavor you could add that 32HD, 33HD, 34HD and 35HD is pretty close in power, and that the mage might not see a big power diffrence.. (even ones of the same HD would have diffrend power value cause some of them mgiht have better natural stats or something) So you (the DM) could role a Dice to determine the creature summoned, though still in the right powerlevel. And if allowed by a house-rules, most unique beings have a way of negating a Gate spell (If the dm use them properly) or well.. Go summon Asmodeus.. and he will summon you!

DM: "You eat you dinner over the campfire... suddenly the sky turns purple and you feel like being in a whirling spiral"
Player: "Wtf? guys what is this?"
DM: "You have no contact with your friends... you feel lonely"
Player: "Serious man.. wtf is going on?"
DM: "As you get out of the spiral and into a battlefield, you see a familiar face Asmodeus! All around you you see demons fighting devils... you're in the middle of another Blood War! "
Player: "Im gonna Killllllllllllll Asmodeus! i draw my weapon"
Dm: "You hear a voice in your head; 'Kill the Demons', and you feel like obeying.. your body begings to move further out on the battle field swinging your arms from side to side trying to hit your NEW enemies!"
Dm makes an evil laught and speaks half an hour about the stupidity of summoning the wrong being

 

[IcyCool]

Question for Nail. The stats for a normal Solar are in the MM. What are the stats for a 34HD Solar? Who stats it out? Are those stats the average ones for 34 HD Solars? Are they for a unique being?

I think that being able to summon a 34HD Solar is really up to your GM (as it is anyway). There don't appear to be any rules that go into it one way or another.

 

[Infiniti2000]

So it would be perfectly fair to let him summon a 34HD Solar (if he is strong enought, and if the monster even exist). For flavor you could add that 32HD, 33HD, 34HD and 35HD is pretty close in power, and that the mage might not see a big power diffrence.. (even ones of the same HD would have diffrend power value cause some of them mgiht have better natural stats or something)

Keep in mind that there is a big difference between 34HD and 35HD. 35HD is one too many as it is more than twice caster level 17. The OP wanted exactly 34HD because it is the most powerful solar he can summon and control. If he wasn't interested in controlling the solar, he would just summon a common solar of 100HD and 100 class levels in each class.

 

[Nail]

A wizard (given sufficient caster level) should be able to say that he wishes to call "One of the Dark Eight" (thus specifying a kind of creature), and not only would one of them have to come, but the wizard would have full control over it.

In this case, each of the "Dark Eight" would be a deity-level (and unique!) creature, and thus not compelled. After all, the text says: "Deities and unique beings"...and in many campaigns each of the Dark Eight would qualify for both designations.

Really, this is not a difficult distinction. The only difficulty might be in how small (or large, as Infiniti2000 points out!) your "kind of being" group-size can be and still be legitimate, or if the "kind of being" is a deity. (In some campaign materials, it seems like everyone's a deity...)

In fact, we might make the arguement that those creatures within a specific "kind of being" group for which you have a name are each unique, and therefore not compelled. The rest of that group could be compelled, etc.

FWIW, and completely IMHO, here's why I think this ruling is the correct one:

• The spell balance comes from the HD limit, principally. Even advanced monsters are balanced in this way.
• The spell breaks, in my view, when you can compell one particular creature (a unique being) to come. Re: Infiniti2000's posts.
• Moreover, being able to compell any named (and thus unique) creature allows you to do all sorts of nasty things to your enemies for free...so long as they don't do it to you first.

Sorry it's taking me so long to respond....my teaching load is higher this week, as it's the beginning of classes.

 

[IcyCool]

Here are the problems I see with those points.

The spell balance comes from the HD limit, principally. Even advanced monsters are balanced in this way.

Could you point a plain Monster Manual critter that has 34 hit dice? Perhaps comparing a published 34 HD critter with a 34 HD Solar. The problem I'm seeing is that there is a great deal of customization that needs to be done for the 34 HD Solar, and as such it will throw balance out of whack.

The spell breaks, in my view, when you can compell one particular creature (a unique being) to come. Re: Infiniti2000's posts.

The definition of "unique being" appears to be subjective.

Moreover, being able to compell any named (and thus unique) creature allows you to do all sorts of nasty things to your enemies for free...so long as they don't do it to you first.

"Hi, I'm Bob the Balor. I know you're just a magician's apprentice, but a prophecy points towards you rising in power, eventually summoning me via a Gate spell, and smiting me down. Now that you know my name, you can't. Have a nice day."

 

[Nail]

Question for Nail.

Errr....you meant to say "more that one question" or "questions", right?

The stats for a normal Solar are in the MM. What are the stats for a 34HD Solar?

The same as those for a 22HD solar, except for the extra HD and those things that change with HD, such as size, ability scores, BAB........

Who stats it out?

Whoever has an interest, I'd imagine. There are rules for advancing monsters, so the player can follow those rules. In fact, given the spell Summon Monster I, the player has already had to stat out a monster that is different than those printed within the MM.

And of course, just like when stating out a PC, there are levels of competance and trust involved between player and DM.

Are those stats the average ones for 34 HD Solars?

Yup.....in the sense that they are the same as those of a 22HD solar, except where the added HD apply.

Are they for a unique being?

Nope. The rules do not require that there be only one solar with 34HD. ...we've already been over this.

The interesting phrase Infiniti2000 found might mean that some of these advanced creatures are unique.

Looking at the improving monsters section, we see this little gem: "However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster."

Of course, now we'll have to debate whether "extraordinary" monsters are always "unique".

 

[Nail]

Could you point a plain Monster Manual critter that has 34 hit dice?

First: HD != CR, so we wouldn't want to compare some random 34HD monster to a 34 HD solar. A Colossal Monstrous Spider is 32 HD..........

Second, I'm not sure why it's necessary, or even why it's necessary to restrict our choices to the MM. We could look in the Epic Level Handbook, for example.......

"Hi, I'm Bob the Balor. I know you're just a magician's apprentice, but a prophecy points towards you rising in power, eventually summoning me via a Gate spell, and smiting me down. Now that you know my name, you can't. Have a nice day."

Of course, this sort of scene would have ABSOLUTELY NO PLACE in a fantasy campaign.

 

[Nail]

Keep in mind that there is a big difference between 34HD and 35HD. 35HD is one too many as it is more than twice caster level 17. The OP wanted exactly 34HD because it is the most powerful solar he can summon and control. If he wasn't interested in controlling the solar, he would just summon a common solar of 100HD and 100 class levels in each class.

Good guess! ...but no.

My present PC, a Clr 19 (with magic items and feats), can summon and control up to a 56 HD creature on a lucky cast. I chose 34 HD as it was the minimum HD for a size Huge solar.

Seemed fair to go lower than my max.

Oh, and solars only go up to 66HD in the MM. (No 100 HD ones.) My PC is still doing research on the ones with 100 class levels.