Questions with Gate

[Nail]

You know, with that sort of definition, you could claim that Gate allows you to call and control "One of the Dark Eight"

Yup.

.....so long as they have the [extraplanar] subtype.

 

[IcyCool]

Yup.

.....so long as they have the [extraplanar] subtype.

So you wouldn't consider say, Asmodeus, to be a unique being?

 

[Shariell]

This sentence continues to illustrates my stance. Note that word "individual." I maintain my view that whenever you advance a creature or discuss the advancing of a creature, you are always doing so without a unique individual in mind. You are never doing so as a general class of monsters.

Of course they're callable. Even unique creatures can be called by Gate. I never disputed that, nor has anyone here. But, there are different rules for unique creatures versus summoning a "kind of being." My view is that an advanced creature is a specific (i.e. unique) creature, and nothing anyone has said has dissuaded me from that view point.

Maybe you don't have understand what I said (probably my fault, since English to me is not my natural language).
When I spoke about "individual who break the HD caps", I spoke about a (for an extreme example) a 200 HD solar. Those beings break the HD advancing chart, not certainly a 34 HD solar.
By definitions in the MM, a 22 HD solar is only the weakest and common of their species, nothing more.
Read the "advancement" entry in the MM, maybe is more understandable than my english (surely is ).
Every reference to the word "individual" is made only related on solard with MORE HD than the 66 HD listed cap in the MM, other ones are not at all unique or even rare (assuming a normal solar is not rare on his side).
Change the word Solar with any other critter you like if that kind of angel seems a bit silly to speak about who is common and who is not.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Two questions:

• Is there only 1 such solar(34 HD) in the multiverse?
• What, in the core rules, leads you to that conclusion?

For #1, it totally depends on the DM's world. How could I possible answer that for you or your DM? #2 is therefore moot. However, when a DM advances a solar to 34HD, he advances one solar, a unique individual, to 34HD. As someone else pointed out, if he were to advance a group of solars to 34HD (call them seraphs), that would be a different kind of solar, and perfectly callable as a non-unique being per Gate.

The definition of "kind of being" must include the parameters to limit which beings are included. That's all I'm doing.

In fact, the parameters I'm using are rather broad, and no where near limiting the group to a unique individual.

I'm thinking that we're just disagreeing on a fundamental level here. I don't see your designation as 34HD even possible.

I believe Thanee was pointing out that at some point, a certain amount of metagaming is necessary.

I agree a certain amount of metagaming is necessary. I agree that the wizard would specify the gate opening at a grid intersection (or whatever). When the wizard player talks to the DM, as a player talks to a DM, then metagame and rules mechanics should be used. However, when the player needs to define something like the summons for a gate, he should not (I say cannot) use metagame knowledge or rules-speak. If someone disagrees with this, I guess there's nothing else to discuss.

If the DM's world has only one solar in it, at whatever HD he wants, is it unique? Can the player call a non-unique solar? If the player summons a solar of a HD that isn't available, what happens? Does the DM have to concede to the player that multiple (non-unique) versions of every monster at every HD, character class, and template combination exists? Keep in mind that this is what I feel you are arguing. For you to assume that a 34HD solar exists, then you immediately assume that every possible combination exists, whether it's a 35HD solar, 36HD solar, vampiric solar, reptilian solar, solar rogue 5, etc. I think we all agree that this is a ridiculous.

So, how does the player find out what's available? The group roleplays it out. Let's say the group comes across the term "seraph" (see example above). I'd say it's perfectly reasonable in that case to then let the player gate in a seraph, which happens to be a 34HD solar. Let's say instead the group comes across Ralph (see example above). I'd it's perfectly reasonable to gate in Ralph, but he's clearly unique and the Gate has limitations.

That's it. I done sed my peace and counted ta three.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Maybe you don't have understand what I said (probably my fault, since English to me is not my natural language).

No problem.

By definitions in the MM, a 22 HD solar is only the weakest and common of their species, nothing more.

I disagree. They are not the weakest, just the most common. The DM could make weaker ones.

Read the "advancement" entry in the MM, maybe is more understandable than my english (surely is ).
Every reference to the word "individual" is made only related on solard with MORE HD than the 66 HD listed cap in the MM, other ones are not at all unique or even rare (assuming a normal solar is not rare on his side).
Change the word Solar with any other critter you like if that kind of angel seems a bit silly to speak about who is common and who is not.

Actually, the advancement entry uses "a creature." It mentions only singular creatures, not a class. But, I'd allow a class (or kind) of creature to be created, such as with the seraph example, but certainly not created by the player.

Looking at the improving monsters section, we see this little gem: "However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster."

Low and behold, could that be direct proof that advancing a creature creates a unique creature?

 

[Nail]

So you wouldn't consider say, Asmodeus, to be a unique being?

(embarrassed) I hadn't realized who "the dark eight" refered to. Given the being called is Asmodeus, then he does qualify as being "unique"....depending on your campaigbn, I suppose.

In fact (and the point I have not argued), the language of the spell can be interpreted to mean that if you call any individual by name (of any rank, power, race, etc), that individual is called "unique" by the spell, and thus is not forced to come and serve the caster.

To be honest, that's a great interpretation - it stops some truely terrible-to-behold tactics for assassination.

Again, we're trying to make a distinction between "kind of creature" and "deities and unique beings". The reason to make that distinct is only to determine if the called creature must come through the gate. That's the point of this thread.

IOW, sure, you can call Asmodeus, but he doesn't have to come through.

 

[Nail]

For #1, it totally depends on the DM's world.

Irrelevant. The RAW has language about the likely distribution of HD within a particular race. Others have pointed this out above. Of course the DM could change this, but for purposes of a rules discussion where we assume RAW, you're simply not going to be able to hide behind this bit of cover.

However, when a DM advances a solar to 34HD, he advances one solar, a unique individual, to 34HD.

Again, you are dodging the question. I readily admit the DM can change the rules, and the distribution of monsters, anyway he likes. However, we're talking about using the rule set and RAW as given. What, in that text, leads you to the conclusion that there is only 1 (or even zero) 34 HD solars in the multiverse?

If we take your assertion to it's logical conclusion, then there are no Orc War2 in the game world, etc until the DM advances them, one at a time.

I'm thinking that we're just disagreeing on a fundamental level here. I don't see your designation as 34HD even possible.

Why?

Does the DM have to concede to the player that multiple (non-unique) versions of every monster at every HD, character class, and template combination exists?

I think here's your "why", BTW.

 

[Nail]

Looking at the improving monsters section, we see this little gem: "However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster."

Low and behold, could that be direct proof that advancing a creature creates a unique creature?

Now we're getting somewhere.......

 

[Infiniti2000]

Again, we're trying to make a distinction between "kind of creature" and "deities and unique beings". The reason to make that distinct is only to determine if the called creature must come through the gate. That's the point of this thread.

Exactly. So, now, what happens if you try to summon "a devil?" Do you get (a) a random devil, possibly a lemure, possibly Mephistopheles, (b) the most common type of devil, depending on the DM's whim (probably a lemure), (c) a response during the spell asking for clarification: "You have no filled out all the blanks", or (d) the spell fails because it's not specific enough.

If we take your assertion to it's logical conclusion, then there are no Orc War2 in the game world, etc until the DM advances them, one at a time.

Exactly. Each one of them is unique.

 

[IcyCool]

Again, we're trying to make a distinction between "kind of creature" and "deities and unique beings". The reason to make that distinct is only to determine if the called creature must come through the gate. That's the point of this thread.

IOW, sure, you can call Asmodeus, but he doesn't have to come through.

But, given your line of reasoning. A wizard (given sufficient caster level) should be able to say that he wishes to call "One of the Dark Eight" (thus specifying a kind of creature), and not only would one of them have to come, but the wizard would have full control over it.