Questions with Gate

[Infiniti2000]

This assertion has come up before, in other threads about gate. As the RAW doesn't explicitly define "unique" (it's not a game term or category, like "solitary"), it seems unsupported and overly restrictive to call a named individual of a species unique. But, YMMV.

Do you agree with the notion that if a word doesn't have a game definition, then you use the normal English definition (or the most applicable definition)? If so, then I think my interpretation of unique is the correct one and certainly not overly restrictive. It's adequately restrictive. If not, then what do you do?

Whereas I think it's just being smart - something I hope you all think your PCs would be. Although my PC may not use the term "hit dice", he can't help but observe and understand the concept within the gaming world.

So, then, give us an in-character summons for a 34HD solar and one for a 35HD solar and we can see how you would differentiate them without metagaming. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but I don't think you can say "34 hit dice" without it being a game mechanic. At best, it would be something like "send me a powerful solar" at which point the DM could choose any advanced solar, but it certainly wouldn't be a 34HD solar specifically.

 

[Shariell]

Indeed, the creatures in the monster manual are the weakest and common versions of their kind, according to the "Advancement" paragraph in the MM.
In that paragraph is stated that is possibly to even break the HD caps suggested by the manual, althoug such case are very rare ones (only in this case I could argue we can talk about an unique individual)

I don't think calling a 34 HD solar is metagame, the increased HD caps is a part of the level-dependant increase of power of the spell, like any other spell with a level dependant damage or effect, thus is balanced by the spell itself.

 

[Shariell]

PS. sorry for my English, this is not my first language.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Shariell - your English looks fine to me!

 

[Nail]

Do you agree with the notion that if a word doesn't have a game definition, then you use the normal English definition (or the most applicable definition)? If so, then I think my interpretation of unique is the correct one and certainly not overly restrictive. It's adequately restrictive. If not, then what do you do?

Hee, hee! (Truth-in-advertising: I'm a player right now in this group, so what I do is what the rules tell me I can do.)

I agree that we have to use the "the normal English" definition....with the caveat that such a definition often leads us out into the wild-blue-yonder.

The spell text says "kind of being". I think we both agree "kind of being" is meant to be distinct from "unique being". Given that "kind" means "a group of individuals that share features" (dictionary definition), and that "all solars with 34HD" are a group, I fail to see why such a creature cannot be gated.

So, then, give us an in-character summons for a 34HD solar and one for a 35HD solar and we can see how you would differentiate them without metagaming.

I've been called out! Very well:

"Oh Lord of Light! Send me the least of the huge solars."

"Oh Lord of Fates! Send me a solar slightly greater than the last one the Lord of Light sent. That one had some factory defects."

 

[Infiniti2000]

I agree that we have to use the "the normal English" definition....with the caveat that such a definition often leads us out into the wild-blue-yonder.

I agree with you that it happens, but not that it happens often. I think that your interpretation of unique is too restrictive and your interpretation of kind of being is not restrictive enough.

The spell text says "kind of being". I think we both agree "kind of being" is meant to be distinct from "unique being". Given that "kind" means "a group of individuals that share features" (dictionary definition), and that "all solars with 34HD" are a group, I fail to see why such a creature cannot be gated.

I don't think I said that they cannot be gated, just that you cannot specifically choose to summon a 34HD solar specifically. Notice how I'm using loaded words like "specifically." Although it may seem like poor debating skills, what I'm doing is trying to call your attention to the fact that you have to choose 34HD as a specific creature, and in my view that strongly inclines me to think it's a unique individual. See where I'm heading with this? It's not really so far in the wild blue yonder as you might think, I think.

 

[darthkilmor]

I don't think I said that they cannot be gated, just that you cannot specifically choose to summon a 34HD solar specifically. Notice how I'm using loaded words like "specifically." Although it may seem like poor debating skills, what I'm doing is trying to call your attention to the fact that you have to choose 34HD as a specific creature, and in my view that strongly inclines me to think it's a unique individual.

If your assumption is that any advanced creature should be unique, what about the various creatures in MM3 that show two versions, one the normal, and one advanced? That certainly says to me that you should be able chose between the two.

 

[molonel]

Anything other than a typical specimen is therefore provably a "unique" creature for the purposes of gate.

If there is more than one 34 HD solar, then a 34 HD solar is not unique. By definition.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

If there is more than one 34 HD solar, then a 34 HD solar is not unique. By definition.

No, he's only unique if you know his name.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If your assumption is that any advanced creature should be unique, what about the various creatures in MM3 that show two versions, one the normal, and one advanced? That certainly says to me that you should be able chose between the two.

That's not my assumption on how Nail runs the game (or his DM does rather). I am actually trying not to assume anything. I'm merely stating that I don't think you can call a "kind of being" and specify that that being be exactly 34HD unless you summon a specific (i.e. unique) being. Before you ask, yes IMO any advanced creature is unique. But, I absolutely sure that's only an opinion and not a rule anywhere. It's not provably false per the rules, either, I might add.

If there is more than one 34 HD solar, then a 34 HD solar is not unique. By definition.

Agreed. Big "if" there, but not pertinent to this discussion. The problem I still see is how do you get a non-unique 34HD solar? On Nail's attempts, neither would work in my view, though #2 is just supposed to be funny I'm sure.