Questions with Gate

[Shariell]

That's not my assumption on how Nail runs the game (or his DM does rather). I am actually trying not to assume anything. I'm merely stating that I don't think you can call a "kind of being" and specify that that being be exactly 34HD unless you summon a specific (i.e. unique) being. Before you ask, yes IMO any advanced creature is unique. But, I absolutely sure that's only an opinion and not a rule anywhere. It's not provably false per the rules, either, I might add.

Agreed. Big "if" there, but not pertinent to this discussion. The problem I still see is how do you get a non-unique 34HD solar? On Nail's attempts, neither would work in my view, though #2 is just supposed to be funny I'm sure.

The "if" is not that big. It's clearly stated in the MM: the versions of the monsters listed as "base creatures" are the weakest and commons of their kind, and it's even possible (altough very rare) to see even individual with MORE than the HD cap listed in the advancement chart.

Advanced monsters (at least within the HD caps listed in the advancement chart) are not unique at all, and thus by the RAW perfectly within the rules for calling via Gate.

Any other rule interpretation is up to the DM, but is certainly not by the RAW.

 

[Thanee]

The problem I still see is how do you get a non-unique 34HD solar?

The same way you point to an intersection on the grid when targeting an area spell, or when buying a +1 keen, ghost touch longsword.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Nail,

My problem with your reasoning is that you're assuming that because the Advancement rules define how a DM might create a more powerful Solar with greater hit dice, that there must therefore be legions of such Solars in the game world, enough to make up a "kind" from which individuals can be Gated.

I see the Advancement rules much the same as the classing rules. Which is to say that the Advancement rules allow for the possibility of a 34 HD Solar, if the DM wishes to stat out Inebriel, Angel of Alcoholic Beverages, in just the way that the rules for adding class levels to a monster provide the DM with the tools to stat out a crazy barbarian/monk kobold, but do not mean that there must be a species of barbarian/monk kobolds with 34 class levels to be called through a Gate.

Solars are a kind of being, just like humans are a kind of being. Can you use Gate to summon a human bodybuilder? Is "ripped human" a "kind" of creature? No? Then neither is a "huge" Solar. Solar is a type of being. Anything other than that requires a specific designation. Plane Shift to your god's (or a god's) realm, and start networking. It's all about who you know!

Incidentally, if I were to introduce a race of 34HD Solars into my game, perhaps calling them Cherubs or Seraphs, and this were known to the PC, then I'd allow the PC to Gate one of them. Likewise, if I felt that it wouldn't disturb my game any to allow the PC to summon a 34HD Solar, I might create such a race, just so the PC would have something to Gate.

But RAW, as far as I'm concerned, you pick the critter out of the MM. Those are "kinds" of creatures. Inebriel, Angel of Alcoholic Beverages, is unique and you'd better have bought him a mug of Arian Dark before you bother trying to call him to fight for you.

 

[Aeric]

"Oh Lord of Light! Send me the least of the huge solars."

"Oh Lord of Fates! Send me a solar slightly greater than the last one the Lord of Light sent. That one had some factory defects."

LOL!

Although to squash any further complaints of metagaming, I would replace the word huge with something more specific such as "tall as a cloud giant." Huge as an adjective is a lot more subjective than it is as a game term, and while you might get lucky and wind up with a Gargantuan or Colossal solar, you might also end up with a solar that is simply Large. Especially if your conjurer is a gnome or a halfling.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The "if" is not that big. It's clearly stated in the MM: the versions of the monsters listed as "base creatures" are the weakest and commons of their kind, and it's even possible (altough very rare) to see even individual with MORE than the HD cap listed in the advancement chart.

This sentence continues to illustrates my stance. Note that word "individual." I maintain my view that whenever you advance a creature or discuss the advancing of a creature, you are always doing so without a unique individual in mind. You are never doing so as a general class of monsters.

Advanced monsters (at least within the HD caps listed in the advancement chart) are not unique at all, and thus by the RAW perfectly within the rules for calling via Gate.

Of course they're callable. Even unique creatures can be called by Gate. I never disputed that, nor has anyone here. But, there are different rules for unique creatures versus summoning a "kind of being." My view is that an advanced creature is a specific (i.e. unique) creature, and nothing anyone has said has dissuaded me from that view point.

The same way you point to an intersection on the grid when targeting an area spell, or when buying a +1 keen, ghost touch longsword.

I see the emoticon, but I'm not sure I understand the connection between your comment and my question. Are you providing support for me? In other words, you target the area spell from a non-in-character perspective (i.e. metagaming), therefore you use a similar method to specify a 34HD creature.

Although to squash any further complaints of metagaming, I would replace the word huge with something more specific such as "tall as a cloud giant."

That still doesn't help. He wants a 34HD solar, no more no less. The size really isn't even an important issue.

 

[IcyCool]

I see the emoticon, but I'm not sure I understand the connection between your comment and my question. Are you providing support for me? In other words, you target the area spell from a non-in-character perspective (i.e. metagaming), therefore you use a similar method to specify a 34HD creature.

I believe Thanee was pointing out that at some point, a certain amount of metagaming is necessary. If you play that your wizard doesn't get to point at a grid intersection and must instead give a well-worded roleplay description of where it lands, then by all means, feel free to ignore it.

For what it's worth, I would consider an advanced (or classed) solar to be a unique being for the purpose of Gate.

 

[Nail]

I don't think I said that they cannot be gated, just that you cannot specifically choose to summon a 34HD solar specifically. Notice how I'm using loaded words like "specifically." Although it may seem like poor debating skills, what I'm doing is trying to call your attention to the fact that you have to choose 34HD as a specific creature, and in my view that strongly inclines me to think it's a unique individual.

Two questions:

• Is there only 1 such solar(34 HD) in the multiverse?
• What, in the core rules, leads you to that conclusion?

 

[Nail]

I'm merely stating that I don't think you can call a "kind of being" and specify that that being be exactly 34HD unless you summon a specific (i.e. unique) being.

The definition of "kind of being" must include the parameters to limit which beings are included. That's all I'm doing.

In fact, the parameters I'm using are rather broad, and no where near limiting the group to a unique individual.

Yer way out in th' open, kid.

 

[IcyCool]

The definition of "kind of being" must include the parameters to limit which beings are included. That's all I'm doing.

In fact, the parameters I'm using are rather broad, and no where near limiting the group to a unique individual.

Yer way out in th' open, kid.

You know, with that sort of definition, you could claim that Gate allows you to call and control "One of the Dark Eight"

 

[Nail]

Can you use Gate to summon a human bodybuilder?

Not unless the human has the [extraplanar] subtype.

Solar is a type of being. Anything other than that requires a specific designation.

Not at all! A solar is a monster race. There are many kinds of solars. I'm defining what "kind of being" I'd like. Simple.

But RAW, as far as I'm concerned, you pick the critter out of the MM. Those are "kinds" of creatures.

No such RAW requirements exist. The fact that they do not exist means you use the commonly understood definition of "kind". I am doing that.