Quick Question: Attacks of Op in the Suprise Round

[robberbaron]

Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round.​

I understand what you are saying and I agree with pretty much all of it.
The quoted text above is at the heart of my interpretation - I think that an AoO is an act, therefore I don't think you can make one if you are unaware of the attacker.

That's it, really.

I don't see any problem with this nerfing Combat Reflexes.
It is already useful in giving multiple AoOs and allowing AoOs before the count gets to the character's initiative. Great for a lower Dex character with the long stick - they aren't always left until last.
In fact, given the heated discussion on how crap Dodge is, I don't think there should be any disagreement that CR is actually quite a good feat, even with my interpretation of 'unaware' and 'act'.


As an aside, I don't view the Rules as immutable. The number of house-rule threads suggest to me that many others feel likewise.

 

[glass]

Threatening a Square is something you do when you are in Combat... You aren't directly in a combat during the suprise round.. Cause you do not know there is a combat...

Now that is a better argument.

oh btw: "You threaten squares. You know the squares are there." <--- in combat you do threaten squares YES, but not against invisible creatures etc. (as for what i wrote "you dont threaten what you dont know is there")

We talk about threatening creatures, but that is just a shorthand; the rules don't say that. Per the rules, you threaten squares, full stop, regardless of what is or isn't in them.

Im sorry but if you dont agree with me at this last part? I think we have a serious problem regarding rules, and especially anything covering Invisibility....

I agree that you cannot take AoO against invisible foes, but not because you do not threaten.



glass.

 

[Felix]

The quoted text above is at the heart of my interpretation - I think that an AoO is an act, therefore I don't think you can make one if you are unaware of the attacker.

That's it, really.

I figured as much; thus the emboldened indention. You're welcome to it, but I caution against this ruling because it erodes the rules-defined meaning of "action".

Incidentally, here is another quote from the Actions In Combat section:

There are four types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, and free actions.​

As Swift Actions and Immediate Actions were defined in supplemental rule books, they would be included in the types of action.

Could you not argue that because an AoO is clearly not defined as any one of the 4 (6) Actions that exist, that it is not considered an Action? Could you not also say that "Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round." also refers to the 4 (6) Action types? And if this is the case, that an AoO is "not an action", which is a listed possibility?

Threatening a Square is something you do when you are in Combat...

You threaten when you wield a weapon. Do you suggest that you only may wield a weapon once combat has begun?

 

[irdeggman]

You threaten when you wield a weapon. Do you suggest that you only may wield a weapon once combat has begun?

Or have Improved Unarmed Combat and are always considered "armed".

 

[Mistwell]

I would allow an AOO in the surprise round for someone with Combat Reflexes.

The general rule is that you cannot act in the surprise round. However, like most rules, there is a specific exception - Combat Reflexes.

The way that "unaware" is represented in the rules is by applying the flat-footed status (which, due to the efficiency of the rules, is a rule that can be applied to many situations). However, Combat Reflexes specifically lets you make an AOO when flat-footed (in any of those situations).

Now, if something else prevents an AOO, like total cover or concealment or inability to actually hit them due to how far they are away from you or something else, then those things of course still apply. But "unaware" alone isn't itself a status - just a description of an event that triggers the flat-footed rule. Much like "unaware" could be a description applied to being attacked by someone who uses the Complete Adventurer rules for moving while still hidden away from cover or concealment to attack with a melee attack - which again applies the flat-footed rules.

Combat reflexes is sort of akin to the Uncanny Dodge chain of abilities. Both let you do something in "unaware" type situations that others cannot do under the general rules. Sort of your reflexes reacting even when your conscious mind is still trying to catch up.