Quick question for Upper_Krust

[Anubis]

I'm still trying to perfect my Super Saiyan, and would like your input.



Here is the template:

Although they are not divine or immortal, Saiyans who have attained Super Saiyan powers are considered deities for purposes of determining whether or not certain Salient Divine Abilities can work on them.

HD: A Super Saiyan always has maximum hit points.
Speed: Super Saiyan x2, Super Saiyan 2 x3, Super Saiyan 3 x4, Super Saiyan 4 x6
*AC: All Super Saiyans have a deflection bonus to their AC equal to their Dexterity bonus (if any). In addition, a Super Saiyan gains a +20 natural armor bonus, a Super Saiyan 2 gains a +40 natural armor bonus, a Super Saiyan 3 gains a +80 natural armor bonus, and a Super Saiyan 4 gains a +160 natural armor bonus. Note: Super Saiyans with less than half Saiyan blood receive only a +5 natural armor bonus.
Attacks: Super Saiyans may make an unlimited number of attacks as determined by his base attack bonus. Super Saiyans do not automatically fail on a natural attack roll of 1.
**Special Qualities: Super Saiyan: damage reduction 105/+7, SR +20; Super Saiyan 2: damage reduction 225/+15, SR +40; Super Saiyan 3: damage reduction 495/+33, SR +80; Super Saiyan 4: damage reduction 1035/+69, SR +160
*Saves: A Super Saiyan gains a +20 resistance bonus to all saving throws, a Super Saiyan 2 gains a +40 resistance bonus to all saving throws, a Super Saiyan 3 gains a +80 resistance bonus to all saving throws, and a Super Saiyan 4 gains a +160 resistance bonus to all saving throws. Note: Super Saiyans with less than half Saiyan blood receive only a +5 resistance bonus to all saving throws.
*Abilities: Super Saiyan: Str +20, Dex +20, Con +20, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +10; Super Saiyan 2: Str +40, Dex +40, Con +40, Int +20, Wis +20, Cha +20; Super Saiyan 3: Str +80, Dex +80, Con +80, Int +40, Wis +40, Cha +40; Super Saiyan 4: Str +160, Dex +160, Con +160, Int +80, Wis +80, Cha +80. Note: Super Saiyans with less than half Saiyan blood receive only Str +5, Dex +5, Con +5, Int +1, Wis +2, Cha +2.
Challenge Rating: Super Saiyan: ECL +20, Super Saiyan 2: ECL +40, Super Saiyan 3: ECL +80, Super Saiyan 4: ECL +160 (Half-Saiyans: Super Saiyan: ECL +13, Super Saiyan 2: ECL +27, Super Saiyan 3: ECL +53, Super Saiyan 4: ECL +107) Note: Super Saiyans with less than half Saiyan blood are ECL +6.

* Half-Saiyans receive only half of these bonuses for the various levels of Super Saiyan.
** Those with less than half Saiyan blood receive few Super Saiyan powers, and do not get any of these bonuses for going Super Saiyan. Furthermore, those with less than half Saiyan blood can never achieve any level beyond that of Super Saiyan.



My question is about the damage reduction and SR. Given everything else, approximately how much damage reduction and SR should the various levels of Super Saiyan have in order to have the ECLs noted? I have given my approximations in the section about Special Qualities, of course, but would like more input.

Also, please explain and reasonings behind your thoughts so that I may understand better.

Oh, could you also rate the ECLs of Half-Saiyans and those with less than Half-Saiyan blood, with the information given?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

You have done the right thing in making them seperate templates. Simply have all the bonuses for the Super-Saiyan double/quodruple/octuple.

So really all you have to do is work the Super-Saiyan out to ECL +20 and the rest should sort itself.

Have hit points: Max/x2/x4/x8

As I see it the Super-Saiyan is roughly ECL+20 (give or take an arbitrary half a point).

 

[Anubis]

Hi Anubis mate!

You have done the right thing in making them seperate templates. Simply have all the bonuses for the Super-Saiyan double/quodruple/octuple.

So really all you have to do is work the Super-Saiyan out to ECL +20 and the rest should sort itself.

Have hit points: Max/x2/x4/x8

As I see it the Super-Saiyan is roughly ECL+20 (give or take an arbitrary half a point).

Oh, you advocate multiplying their hit points as well? That's something I hadn't thought of . . .

Anyway, you didn't answer my main question, though. Given the ECL ratings and all other powers (HD, AC, Attacks, Saves, and Abilities), what damage reduction and SR would you give them, or what range of damage reduction and SR would you give them? (In other words, just assume everything but the Special Qualities are as-is. Given the ECL +20, ECL +40, and so on and so forth, what damage reduction and SR would you give the various levels in order to COMPLETE those ECL ratings?)

Also, how would you rate the Half-Saiyans and those with less than Half-Saiyan blood?

 

[Anubis]

Heck, while we're at it, could you go over to my Saiyans thread and check it out? I recently knocked the Saiyans from ECL +15 to ECL +10. Do you think the ECL +10/CR 10 is appropriate?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

I seem to have got distracted by the Book of Vile Darkness thread in the General Discussion Forum.

Oh, you advocate multiplying their hit points as well? That's something I hadn't thought of . . .

You may as well - that way you end up simply multiplying everything; keeps everythin neat and tidy.

Anyway, you didn't answer my main question, though. Given the ECL ratings and all other powers (HD, AC, Attacks, Saves, and Abilities), what damage reduction and SR would you give them, or what range of damage reduction and SR would you give them? (In other words, just assume everything but the Special Qualities are as-is. Given the ECL +20, ECL +40, and so on and so forth, what damage reduction and SR would you give the various levels in order to COMPLETE those ECL ratings?)

I did answer you - I said your Super-Saiyan Template was ECL+20 as shown.

Personally I would change Spell Resistance to 30 and Damage Reduction to 20/+4 though.

By the way for Super-Saiyan 2 (and beyond) remember to double Spell Resistance after 10. eg. 30/50/90/170.

Also, how would you rate the Half-Saiyans and those with less than Half-Saiyan blood?

Looks like ECL+3 but its pretty cluttered up there - I could be missing relevant abilities. If you seperated all the Templates into individual lists it might be easier for us to get a clear picture.

Heck, while we're at it, could you go over to my Saiyans thread and check it out? I recently knocked the Saiyans from ECL +15 to ECL +10. Do you think the ECL +10/CR 10 is appropriate?

Any chance you could post that herein - would be easier for me to find I'm guessing.

 

[Anubis]

You may as well - that way you end up simply multiplying everything; keeps everythin neat and tidy.

And it wouldn't raise the ECL any more?

I did answer you - I said your Super-Saiyan Template was ECL+20 as shown.

Oh! Okay, I thought maybe you missed the insane damage reduction ratings there . . . Interesting . . .

Personally I would change Spell Resistance to 30 and Damage Reduction to 20/+4 though.

Actually, that is what the SR is as of now. I think I made it a bit hard to understand . . . You see, most Saiyans who go Super Saiyan will already have SR 50 (if a Saiyan Elite) or at least SR 30 (if only a Saiyan Warrior), so I named the SR as an addition. Not all have those two classes, however, so . . . Any which way, it's 20 more SR than the creature's normal value, regardless of what that normal value is.

As for the damage reduction, a Saiyan Elite already gets damage reduction at 30/+6, and I wanted the Super Saiyan value to be better than that . . .

You should see that the values are currently:

Super Saiyan: damage reduction 70/+7
Super Saiyan 2: damage reduction 150/+15
Super Saiyan 3: damage reduction 310/+31
Super Saiyan 4: damage reduction 630/+63

You think that the ECL numbers I have are appropriate for those levels of damage reduction?

Hmmm . . . As for the hit points . . . Reducing the damage reduction would balance that a bit . . . How about this:

Super Saiyan: damage reduction 70/+7
Super Saiyan 2: damage reduction 100/+10
Super Saiyan 3: damage reduction 150/+15
Super Saiyan 4: damage reduction 220/+22

Certainly your ECL calculations could shed some light on a more accurate figure?

Looks like ECL+3 but its pretty cluttered up there - I could be missing relevant abilities. If you seperated all the Templates into individual lists it might be easier for us to get a clear picture.

Okay, here you go.



First, Half-Saiyans. These can achieve all levels as regular Saiyans, but only at half power. Here are the actual calculations:

Although they are not divine or immortal, Saiyans who have attained Super Saiyan powers are considered deities for purposes of determining whether or not certain Salient Divine Abilities can work on them.

HD: A Super Saiyan always has maximum hit points.
Speed: Super Saiyan x2, Super Saiyan 2 x3, Super Saiyan 3 x4, Super Saiyan 4 x6
AC: All Super Saiyans have a deflection bonus to their AC equal to their Dexterity bonus (if any). In addition, a Super Saiyan gains a +10 natural armor bonus, a Super Saiyan 2 gains a +20 natural armor bonus, a Super Saiyan 3 gains a +40 natural armor bonus, and a Super Saiyan 4 gains a +80 natural armor bonus.
Attacks: Super Saiyans may make an unlimited number of attacks as determined by his base attack bonus. Super Saiyans do not automatically fail on a natural attack roll of 1.
Special Qualities: Super Saiyan: damage reduction 70/+7, SR +20; Super Saiyan 2: damage reduction 150/+15, SR +40; Super Saiyan 3: damage reduction 310/+31, SR +80; Super Saiyan 4: damage reduction 630/+63, SR +160
Saves: A Super Saiyan gains a +10 resistance bonus to all saving throws, a Super Saiyan 2 gains a +20 resistance bonus to all saving throws, a Super Saiyan 3 gains a +40 resistance bonus to all saving throws, and a Super Saiyan 4 gains a +80 resistance bonus to all saving throws.
*Abilities: Super Saiyan: Str +10, Dex +10, Con +10, Int +5, Wis +5, Cha +5; Super Saiyan 2: Str +20, Dex +20, Con +20, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +10; Super Saiyan 3: Str +40, Dex +40, Con +40, Int +20, Wis +20, Cha +20; Super Saiyan 4: Str +80, Dex +80, Con +80, Int +40, Wis +40, Cha +40.

Basically, Half-Saiyans get only half of all numeric bonuses for being Super Saiyan, but they get all other abilities normally. I rated them as having an ECL 2/3 that of a normal Saiyan, but what do you think?



Now for all with LESS than half Saiyan blood. They can never achieve any level past normal Super Saiyan.

Although they are not divine or immortal, Saiyans who have attained Super Saiyan powers are considered deities for purposes of determining whether or not certain Salient Divine Abilities can work on them.

HD: A Super Saiyan always has maximum hit points.
Speed: x2
*AC: All Super Saiyans have a deflection bonus to their AC equal to their Dexterity bonus (if any). In addition, a Super Saiyan gains a +5 natural armor bonus.
Attacks: Super Saiyans may make an unlimited number of attacks as determined by his base attack bonus. Super Saiyans do not automatically fail on a natural attack roll of 1.
*Saves: A Super Saiyan gains a +5 resistance bonus to all saving throws.
*Abilities: Str +5, Dex +5, Con +5, Int +1, Wis +2, Cha +2.

I'm wanting this to be worth only 1/3 as much as a normal Super Saiyan. They don't get the damage reduction or SR, and limited increases, and can never achieve a higher Super Saiyan level.

Any chance you could post that herein - would be easier for me to find I'm guessing.

It would be no problem to find, it's the very first opost in the topic. (I keep the main post updated with the latest info.) If you would like me to post it here, though, I would.

 

[Anubis]

BUMP.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

And it wouldn't raise the ECL any more?

The ECL is being double each time!

Actually, that is what the SR is as of now. I think I made it a bit hard to understand . . .

Its not always easy to tell which template has what ability because you lumped everything together. Its like reading a paragraph without any punctuation.

As for the damage reduction, a Saiyan Elite already gets damage reduction at 30/+6, and I wanted the Super Saiyan value to be better than that . . .

You should see that the values are currently:

Super Saiyan: damage reduction 70/+7
Super Saiyan 2: damage reduction 150/+15
Super Saiyan 3: damage reduction 310/+31
Super Saiyan 4: damage reduction 630/+63

Why does it go: 70 - 150 - 310 - 630? I don't understand the progression you have chosen?

You think that the ECL numbers I have are appropriate for those levels of damage reduction?

I would prefer it if you rated them in multiples of 5/+1

Hmmm . . . As for the hit points . . . Reducing the damage reduction would balance that a bit . . . How about this:

Super Saiyan: damage reduction 70/+7
Super Saiyan 2: damage reduction 100/+10
Super Saiyan 3: damage reduction 150/+15
Super Saiyan 4: damage reduction 220/+22

Certainly your ECL calculations could shed some light on a more accurate figure?

Just double it every time.

35/+7 - 70/+14 - 140/+28 - 280/+56

First, Half-Saiyans. These can achieve all levels as regular Saiyans, but only at half power. Here are the actual calculations:

Although they are not divine or immortal, Saiyans who have attained Super Saiyan powers are considered deities for purposes of determining whether or not certain Salient Divine Abilities can work on them.

HD: A Super Saiyan always has maximum hit points.
Speed: Super Saiyan x2, Super Saiyan 2 x3, Super Saiyan 3 x4, Super Saiyan 4 x6
AC: All Super Saiyans have a deflection bonus to their AC equal to their Dexterity bonus (if any). In addition, a Super Saiyan gains a +10 natural armor bonus, a Super Saiyan 2 gains a +20 natural armor bonus, a Super Saiyan 3 gains a +40 natural armor bonus, and a Super Saiyan 4 gains a +80 natural armor bonus.
Attacks: Super Saiyans may make an unlimited number of attacks as determined by his base attack bonus. Super Saiyans do not automatically fail on a natural attack roll of 1.
Special Qualities: Super Saiyan: damage reduction 70/+7, SR +20; Super Saiyan 2: damage reduction 150/+15, SR +40; Super Saiyan 3: damage reduction 310/+31, SR +80; Super Saiyan 4: damage reduction 630/+63, SR +160
Saves: A Super Saiyan gains a +10 resistance bonus to all saving throws, a Super Saiyan 2 gains a +20 resistance bonus to all saving throws, a Super Saiyan 3 gains a +40 resistance bonus to all saving throws, and a Super Saiyan 4 gains a +80 resistance bonus to all saving throws.
*Abilities: Super Saiyan: Str +10, Dex +10, Con +10, Int +5, Wis +5, Cha +5; Super Saiyan 2: Str +20, Dex +20, Con +20, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +10; Super Saiyan 3: Str +40, Dex +40, Con +40, Int +20, Wis +20, Cha +20; Super Saiyan 4: Str +80, Dex +80, Con +80, Int +40, Wis +40, Cha +40.

Like I said before you really need to seperate these templates. Its all double dutch.

Basically, Half-Saiyans get only half of all numeric bonuses for being Super Saiyan, but they get all other abilities normally. I rated them as having an ECL 2/3 that of a normal Saiyan, but what do you think?

Now for all with LESS than half Saiyan blood. They can never achieve any level past normal Super Saiyan.

Although they are not divine or immortal, Saiyans who have attained Super Saiyan powers are considered deities for purposes of determining whether or not certain Salient Divine Abilities can work on them.

HD: A Super Saiyan always has maximum hit points.
Speed: x2
*AC: All Super Saiyans have a deflection bonus to their AC equal to their Dexterity bonus (if any). In addition, a Super Saiyan gains a +5 natural armor bonus.
Attacks: Super Saiyans may make an unlimited number of attacks as determined by his base attack bonus. Super Saiyans do not automatically fail on a natural attack roll of 1.
*Saves: A Super Saiyan gains a +5 resistance bonus to all saving throws.
*Abilities: Str +5, Dex +5, Con +5, Int +1, Wis +2, Cha +2.

I'm wanting this to be worth only 1/3 as much as a normal Super Saiyan. They don't get the damage reduction or SR, and limited increases, and can never achieve a higher Super Saiyan level.

Just make the Half-Saiyan HALF the power of the Super-Saiyan. Then that template is +10 ECL.

It would be no problem to find, it's the very first opost in the topic. (I keep the main post updated with the latest info.) If you would like me to post it here, though, I would.

I'll give it a look later today.