Quicker Than The Eye feat (from Song & Silence)

[Davelozzi]

Hi. I'm looking for some feedback on this feat, which one of my players is interested in taking. Since it's only one feat and I don't think that the book is in print anymore anyway, I think it'll be alright if I post it here for reference:

Quicker Than The Eye [General]
Your hands move so quickly that observers don't see what you've done.
Prerequisite: Dexterity 19+
Benefit: While under direct observation, you can make a Bluff check as a move equivalent action, opposed bt the Spot checks of any observers. If you succeed, your misdirection makes them look elsewhere whle you take a partial action. If your partial action is an attack against someone who failed the opposed check, that opponent is denied a Dexterity bonus to AC

Keeping in mind that this was written for 3.0 (but we'd be using it for 3.5), the basic function of the feat is that it allows you to feint in combat (as per the Bluff skill), but using your Spot instead of Sense Motive and more significantly, as a move action instead of a standard action. Trading Spot for Sense Motive seems like a negligble bonus, possibly a hindrance, since as far as I can tell more opponents are likely to have a higher Spot than Sense Motive.

The trouble comes with the transition to the 3.5 rules, as an opponent that you're trying to feint against now gets to add his BAB to his Sense Motive roll to apply your Bluff. Using Spot instead now becomes a real advantage, and one that clearly wasn't intended by the original feat. Therefore, I'm inclined, if I allow this feat, to ignore the Spot side of it, and keep using the Sense Motive, essentiall meaning that the feat benefit could be rewritten to simply say "You may feint in combat (as per the Bluff skill) as a move action rather than a standard action."

Does this sound like a fair and well-reasoned way to handle this?

More importantly, has anyone seen this feat in action (either 3.0 or 3.5) that can give me any feedback as to how well balanced it is? The benefit is pretty substantial for a rogue, as it now means that anytime he doesn't have to move more than 5' in one round he can feint first as a move action, and if he's successful, follow up in the same round with a sneak attack. This might be a little too easy.

Thoughts?

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

There have been a couple of "Improved Feint" feats floating around. IMO it's not too bad. A rogue that is not sneak attacking isn't doint much in terms of damage, so they should always, when fighting, get into a position that lets them sneak attack.

With the new Feint rules, the rogue's Feint isn't a given anymore, so the rogue will miss a couple of those.

And rogues with poor AC that get into combat more are bound to get hurt more

AR

 

[CRGreathouse]

Therefore, I'm inclined, if I allow this feat, to ignore the Spot side of it, and keep using the Sense Motive, essentiall meaning that the feat benefit could be rewritten to simply say "You may feint in combat (as per the Bluff skill) as a move action rather than a standard action.

Does this sound like a fair and well-reasoned way to handle this?

Yes, very -- it's Improved Feint (PH v. 3.5 p. 95). The 3.5 PH's requirements: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

here we go.

 

[Davelozzi]

Yes, very -- it's Improved Feint (PH v. 3.5 p. 95). The 3.5 PH's requirements: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

Doh! how did I miss that? thanks!

Feedback on using Improved Feint in action with sneak attacks is still welcome, although now that I see that it's in the core rules I'll probably just tell my player to use it as written there and forget about Quicker Than The Eye.

 

[TracerBullet42]

Doh! how did I miss that? thanks!

Feedback on using Improved Feint in action with sneak attacks is still welcome, although now that I see that it's in the core rules I'll probably just tell my player to use it as written there and forget about Quicker Than The Eye.

Don't give up on that feat just yet...while it offers the same benefits as Improved Feint, it has different requirements and functions differently, in my interpretation.

Improved Feint has and Intelligence 13 requirement and Combat Expertise. I interpret this to say that the character is a knowledgable fighter and knows how to "fake out" his opponent using his knowledge.

Quicker than the Eye requires a 19 Dex, which is quite high. I interpret this to say that the character uses his speed to fake out his opponent.

So while the benefits of the two feats are the same, I think that they are both viable feats because they represent two different styles of fighting and character concepts.

I like bacon. (just wish I was eating some right now...thought I'd share)

 

[Davelozzi]

So while the benefits of the two feats are the same, I think that they are both viable feats because they represent two different styles of fighting and character concepts.

Although I think you're argument is valid, I'd rather stick with Improved Feint. It's a little cleaner (pretty much how I was going to rewrite the other one anyway). Plus, since it has another feat as a prereq makes me feel a little better about it, since I was kind of worried about it being too much of a freebie in the first place. And my player seems ammenable to taking Combat Expertise as a step to get there.

And frankly, although I'll take a little bacon now and then, I think it's a little overrated.

 

[TracerBullet42]

And frankly, although I'll take a little bacon now and then, I think it's a little overrated.

You can disagree with my take on the feat, heck you could even just call me stupid or something...but don't you DARE say anything bad about bacon!!! Shame on you...

Perhaps we need a bacon forum to continue this discussion...

 

[Norfleet]

The trouble comes with the transition to the 3.5 rules, as an opponent that you're trying to feint against now gets to add his BAB to his Sense Motive roll to apply your Bluff. Using Spot instead now becomes a real advantage, and one that clearly wasn't intended by the original feat.

That's not a trouble. You just feint, and instead of sense motive + BAB opposing your feint, it's spot + BAB for someone using this feat to feint.

 

[Hypersmurf]

QttE and Improved Feint look vaguely similar on the surface, but they actually behave very differently in a lot of situations.

Example - QttE can be used with a Ranged attack.
Example - You can use Improved Feint at the end of your turn, and it will apply to an AoO you make.
Example - You can use QttE with the 3E Weapon Master's Ki Whirlwind ability to Sneak Attack a whole bunch of people.

It's simplest to just say "Use Improved Feint for 3.5", but especially with the different prerequisites, it's a little trickier if you're converting a character...

-Hyp.